Re: Too good to be true?
From: Lashdeep Singh (lashdeepyahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 16:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Rick, sounds like a “No” to my question?

Any interest in actually driving these cars?

Drilling through bodywork and fondling tie rods sounds fun but the real enjoyment with a vintage exotic is actually driving it as intended.

Let me know and we can invite our buddy MD too.



On Sep 24, 2021, at 19:17, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


As an engineer, I prefer to do my "testing" in an investigative manner rather than forensically.

If by "completely sorted" you mean a full subframe, Corvette rack, Porsche uprights, Pratt and Miller spindles and stingers with Speith nut keepers, Pin Drive BBS wheels, Alcon radial mount monoblock calipers with full floating Kandix rotors and a Huffaker built modular motor with a Xtrac transaxle, yep.  27 hours of client testing at Sears.

If by "driven" you mean hard and by "completely sorted" you mean a recently wiped down factory delivered car...  nope, I'm smarter than that.  De Tomaso was turning those things out and just barely staying ahead of his creditors closing the doors.  The pretty girl at the front desk was VERY talkative.

Like I said, they are a timeless design, especially the GT5-S. I'll have another one when the right one comes along. But I have no qualms questioning their lack of build quality or material quality.
Someone sold you a story.

On Friday, September 24, 2021, 09:16:45 AM PDT, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:


Rick, I was paying attention but was also trying to follow why you were “testing” a vintage Italian exotic with a drill instead of a stopwatch and a closed circuit??

Have you driven a completely sorted 9000 with new tires back to back with a narrow car, a Countach, a BB and maybe a Bora or Ghibli?








On Sep 24, 2021, at 16:14, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


You weren't paying attention.
The 39 Ford was Bitchin' Products steel, not 1939 Ford lead and iron

The Lambo had better, not much but better, metallurgy than the Pantera, it's been tested.
The Pantera Nouvo came close to having good steel, but they quit making them when the costs increased beyond what they could sell them for.
The Pantera steering components, especially tie rod ends, are grossly undersized for anything but country driving, see how many get broken at the track.  I've seen dozens.  I've fixed half that many.
We had them tested, the front spindles were load rated lower than a Pinto
The uprights were roller bearings, unless you had Dennis Quella do the taper conversion (I did, $3K).
These were all things that should have been done at the factory.
I could go on for another hour but am already late for a doctor appointment.

Drive those cars at speed. Go ahead, you obviously don't understand the engineering principals you are exceeding.
Fun, yeah.  Smart, no.

Ask Clyde, the faster you go, the faster things can go wrong.

On Friday, September 24, 2021, 07:44:55 AM PDT, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:


Rick, try that drill test with any period hand built Italian exotic and that exact same job will take the identical 2.0 seconds it took you on the Pantera.

A Countach would probably be 1 second.

They are not a ‘39 Hot Rod made of lead and iron.

The later cars are amazing when you are driving them REALLY FAST which is what they were designed to do.

I have had a few 9000s now and have driven half a dozen for many, many hours at over 200 km/h in North America and Europe.

A truly underrated vintage supercar!



On Sep 24, 2021, at 15:00, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


Lash,
No, the 74 on cars were equally junk.  Without the Ford money, they cut even more corners... except on looks.
Don't get me wrong, I like Panteras and they are a timeless design
I still regret selling the one I spent years refining.
Even the euro cars were shitboxes (to use cLyDe's vernacular)
The components were all undersized.
The ZF transmission is out of a German Grader (not kidding)
The bodies were made out of recycled clothes hangers (may be kidding there, can't think of where else you get such crappy steel).

Probably 22 years ago I was finishing up the digital rewire of Lou Schwartz's 39 Ford.  All the metal work had been done by Henry with Bitchin' Products body panels.  I had to drill the firewall for the bulkhead connector to run the LS engine bay harness.
With a brand new bi-metal hole saw I started drilling and drilling and oiling and pushing, no LEANING on the drill and it took me 5 minutes to get through the firewall.   It's why I finally bought a mag-drill.

Right after that a group of us started to work on a long needed mod to the Panteras to get rid of the huge bundled cable for the rear of the car electrics that ran through the engine bay.  Four of us were collaborating on how to move/reroute that bundle.  We all hit the same snag.  When you got to the back of the car there was no entry point into the channel where the taillights resided.  I decided to use my car as the guinea pig. I pulled the taillights out. I pulled the right rear wheel and pulled the cable bundle out, back to the B pillar.  The back of the taillight cavity loomed deep in the back of the wheel well.  I used a big foam block I had as a back stop to lean against the upright/brake assembly, carefully aligned the hole saw on the pilot hole I drilled and prepared to drill the hole... remembering all the time the struggle to get through the firewall in Lou's car. 

The hole saw popped through the Pantera taillight bucket in about 2 seconds and I was pushing hard enough I almost blew a hole through the back of the car when the bit lurched forward (rearward) after penetrating.   The sheet metal put up almost the same resistance as you'd get pushing a spoon through soggy cardboard.  It's no wonder the cars sag if you leave them on jackstands too long.   Gary Hall knew, that's why he built all the stiffening mods and weld-in Y plates for the Panteras.  I'm convinced it is why there is a 2000 rpm resonance drone you can't sound condition out of the car.

But we had a route to move that big ugly cable out of the engine bay.  People have been doing it since.

On Friday, September 24, 2021, 01:31:47 AM PDT, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:


Ford tried and accomplished lots of cost cutting on the Pantera to market it to a price point in North America.

Inferior brake parts, inferior tires, raised ride height, etc.

Luckily, factory delivered cars to the rest of the world (and made after 1974) were full spec and absolutely superb.


On Sep 24, 2021, at 03:05, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org> wrote:


Had a long lunch with Tom Tjaarda some 15 years ago. He related that his original drawings for the Pantera had a chin spoiler. Somewhere along the way to production it got removed. He said he drove an early production car at (high) speed, it had bad lift, and contacted them "put the spoiler back on!"

Hans. 

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 5:56 PM Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:
A really nice Pantera just went up for sale on BAT.

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:23 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
No, Mikey is a real person.  Mike Drew  aka "Sparky"
One of my dearest and longest term friends.
Current Air Force Reserve C-5 Pilot
Sometimes American Airlines Pilot (when he absolutely has to work)
He really prefers to be "gainfully unemployed".
Probably the worlds biggest resource on all things Pantera.
He has probably been involved in the sale of more Panteras than Lincoln/Mercury, and has never taken a dime.
He probably has more seat time in (other people's) sports cars than anyone on the planet.
I don't think he's ever met Steve Jenkins

Jenkins?  You still here?


On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 05:07:51 PM PDT, Matt Boyd <ferrari308driver [at] gmail.com> wrote:


Is Mikey the new Ricky?

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:53 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
You know Mikey... 
It'd probably mean I get to fix it, he'd get to drive it!

Rick

On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 02:39:35 PM PDT, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:


Give MD the rear 1/2 and you take the front!

On Sep 23, 2021, at 19:11, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


Nah, I'd probably have to cut Mikey in for a share....

On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 10:00:35 AM PDT, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:


Rick, we can share the 456!

Clyde, are you accepting me into your clueless about *current* car values club?

How exciting!

Can we coordinate complaint posts about recent auction results?












On Sep 23, 2021, at 15:23, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


I know, it was really directed at Peter but wanted to get my color order in without stepping on Lash's toes.


On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 07:13:32 AM PDT, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:


You’re wasting your time with Lash
He has no concept on vehicle value whatsoever 




     RF4-4EVR

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    


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On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:


So basically, you'd like a 550 at 456 prices.
Me too, sign me up.
Contrary to Mr. B...   make mine black.


On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 04:05:18 AM PDT, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:


Agree on your specs…lots of style, noise and hustle for the $$$.

Find me a Nero/Bordeaux example please…

On Sep 23, 2021, at 07:55, Peter Rychel <dino308gt4 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:



For what it’s worth, I love the 456 and would consider one, but here’s what I’d want:

 

-Imported or import myself a Euro model from 1994.

-Six speed manual.

 

Why?

 

The 1994 Euro models didn’t come with airbags. After nearly 30 years, I wouldn’t trust the bag fabric or explosives in an accident. Seatbelts have worked for the last 60+ years and even with aging, it’s simple and not that costly to replace. Oh, and the air bag ECUs easily fry if you jump-start a dead 456/550. Those ECUs are NLA. You can’t sell a car with an airbag fault/error code (unless you want to accept that liability in case the next owner has an accident). Besides, I hate the look of the fat steering wheels of the airbag cars. The Euros used slender three-spoke designs.

 

The automatic transmissions in these 456s were bespoke items using parts that are now NLA (see the theme?). The same reason why I wouldn’t touch a single-clutch F1 system from a modern, 2000s-era Ferrari. Not that a manual clutch job would be easy to do on a 456, but at least it’s still do-able and the parts are available.

 

Other, unavoidable weak points on the car are the power windows and the rear shock absorbers. The factory fixes never fix the problems and they continue to break. Mike Sheehan sold one several years ago and when I read the service report, the rear shocks were changed on that particular example every year...

 

Peter

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

 

From: Anthony Bauco
Sent: September 22, 2021 10:33 AM
To: PeterGT4
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Too good to be true?

 

Yes, it is all about you.

 

1. The 456 was released in 1992, not 1989, and only shared its stroke with the 348.  It is as similar to the 550 as it is the 348.  And the 575 is based on the same Dino platform.  Technology advances.  That is why it is $40k and not $140k.

2. A lack of records doesn't make a car a "parts car".  That is just a ridiculous statement.

3. As stated earlier, insurance will pay for replacement body panels.

4. If you hate automatics, fine, not for you but that isn't relevant.  Auto or not, this seems like a great deal.  And, like any slush box, they are reliable if properly maintained.  Given its pedigree, parts are readily available and cheap.  And, yes Clyde, slush box refers to a hydro-auto and not a manual.

 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 12:09 PM Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you Erik

No one believes me anymore!

Clyde Romero

 

If you have no enemies

You have no character ! 

 

Scars are tattoos with better stories!

When you're out of F-4's you're out of fighters!

 

 

 









On Sep 22, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:



Buy the hood, get the rest of the car for $15k....

 

 

Go price a Mercedes V12 of the same era, there is a reason that these are all ten cents on the original dollar cars.  

 

Enthusiasts/masochists, toMAto, tomato...

 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:45 AM Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Like I said

This is a moving parts car for the 456 crowd

Some 456 owners need to get together and by it for parts

Clyde Romero

 

If you have no enemies

You have no character ! 

 

Scars are tattoos with better stories!

When you're out of F-4's you're out of fighters!

 

 

 









On Sep 22, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Matt Boyd <ferrari308driver [at] gmail.com> wrote:



That's almost tempting at that price point. Besides the fact that it's automatic, besides the fact that it isn't pristine, besides the one stupid issue they have that I know about with windows, what are the downsides/risks? First thing is "some recent service," what does that mean? In other words, when was the last "major service" and when is it due next? What is the extent of a normal "major service" on a 456, and can an owner do it? I haven't done it in a while but I can do a major service (cam belts, tensioners, valve adjust, etc) on my 308 in a weekend, but my impression is that the newer and more complex the car is the less owner-serviceable it is, and I assume that's the case here.

 

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:37 AM Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

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