Ferrari Mailing List: Re: NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor

[Martin Stark (MStark]

The problem I'm having is finding a location for the 2 digital readouts, 
they are about 3.4in x 2.7in x 1.3in. and I'm open to suggestions.

Jeff Greenfield wrote:

> If you want to go the wideband route, by all means do, it's a nifty setup.
>
> I was just trying to help you accomplish basically the same thing without
> going to the trouble of having to install more hardware. When I work on
> stuff like this (this is what I do, and I generally don't work on enough of
> any one thing to have specialized tooling) I try to find ways to make do
> with the tools available to me. 
>
> So, I was trying to take you down one path of enlightenment which has worked
> for me.
>
> FWIW, I did find some more info in another manual I have, and it appears
> that KE does not have the frequency valve so the duty cycle discussion is
> mute. Besides, I've got a couple of different ways of measuring duty cycle
> directly, so I don't have to deal with the math. Just eliminates one more
> potential source for an error :-) 
>
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 4:41 PM
> To: Jeff Greenfield
> Cc: 'The FerrariList'
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor
>
> Good info, thxn Jeff.  To answer your question concerning duty cycle 
> calculation, using an oscilloscope one could measure the pulse width and 
> establish a ratio between pulse and no pulse (on/off time * 100) = duty 
> cycle. I still am leaning towards installing a pair of NGK AFX A/F 
> monitors.  Btw, Jim Conforti says he likes them a lot and he's about the 
> most savvy guy I know.
>
> Jeff Greenfield wrote:
>
>  
>
> > Here are couple of links I found that describe KE in more detail.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.aicautosite.com/garage/encyclop/ency07c.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > http://rb-k.bosch.de/resources/literatur/leseproben/u213e.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > I am not sure if KE has the frequency valve or not. KE will have a
> > rectangular shaped sensor which is either white or black on the side of the
> > fuel distributor, this is not the same as the frequency valve.
> >
> >
> >
> > The frequency valve is a small cylindrical device, usually mounted in the
> > vicinity of the fuel distributor, it will be round, with a fuel line going
> > in one end and out the other. There will be an electrical connector with
> >    
> two
>  
>
> > pins in it as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > On the KE system, the mixture is set by measuring the current at the
> >    
> sensor.
>  
>
> > One of the links above describes how to do this.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, on the K-lambda system you can set the mixture by measuring the duty
> > cycle at the frequency valve. You do this by back-probing the frequency
> > valve with the oxygen sensor disconnected with the engine at idling at
> > operating temperature. I don't see any reason you couldn't do it with a
> > scope instead of a meter that measures duty cycle. If your scope doesn't
> > read the duty cycle directly (some newer ones do), then you may have to do
> > the calculation to figure out what the duty cycle is. (I don't remember how
> > to calculate it without digging out some old text books).
> >
> >
> >
> > You may want to consider investing in this book before you get in too deep
> >    
> .
>  
>
> > http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=GFIB
> > <http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=GFIB&subject=25>
> > &subject=25
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:21 PM
> > To: Jeff Greenfield
> > Cc: 'The FerrariList'
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, it is a KE system, and the screw adjustment affects the mixture at
> >    
> idle
>  
>
> > and throughout the power range. Aren't the frequency valves the black
> > objects mounted on the sides of the fuel distributors, where are the
> > additional sensors located on the fuel distributors to which you refer?
> >
> > Just so that I fully understand what you are saying: The procedure would
> >    
> be
>  
>
> > to set the screw adjustments on both fuel distributors so that the duty
> > cycle of both frequency valves is approx 55% as a starting point?  I don't
> > have a Fluke 88, can this be done with a Tektronix scope - connect to the
> > frequency valve cable and measure the width of the square wave pulse or
> >    
> some
>  
>
> > such?
> >
> > Jeff Greenfield wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > First of all, is this a KE or K-lambda system we are talking about?
> >
> > KE systems will have an additional sensor mounted to the side of the fuel
> > distributor. K and K-lambda does not have this sensor. 
> >
> > KE is a bit of a different animal ... I think that most of the principles
> > apply to both systems but am not 100% sure as I am as familiar with KE.
> >
> > I could be wrong, but I believe that the mixture adjustment at the set
> >    
> screw
>  
>
> > on the k and K-lambda jetronic controls the mixture at idle AND throughout
> > the range. 
> >
> > At WOT, the throttle switch closes, which bypasses the O2 sensor, and opens
> > the frequency valve to a pre-determined point.
> >
> > So, in a nutshell, there is no way you can set the mixture on a CIS system
> > at WOT (outside of the design parameters that is), and still have the
> > mixture correct elsewhere throughout the range.
> >
> > Sure you could set it way rich, and leave the O2 sensors disconnected, and
> > you 'might' get a little more performance at WOT, but the idle will be
> > awful, you'll dilute the oil with fuel, wash down the cylinder walls with
> > fuel causing premature wear to the rings and cylinder walls.
> >
> > One other thought, if you are dealing with a 12 cylinder with two
> > independent systems, the first thing I would do is a full series of fuel
> > pressure checks on both banks. CIS mixture is largely controlled by fuel
> > pressure. There are several things in the system that control pressure, so
> > you should be sure that the pressures are the same (or reasonably close) on
> > both banks before going any further.
> >
> > A failing warm up regulator, a misadjusted or shimmed fuel distributor,
> > among other things could wreck havoc with the system. This along with a
> > vacuum leak somewhere could literally make it impossible to get both banks
> > to be equal not only at WOT, but anywhere throughout the range.
> >
> > After years of working on cars with CIS I swore I would never own a car
> >    
> with
>  
>
> > CIS and then what do I do ... I go out and buy a 308QV :-)
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:15 PM
> > To: Jeff Greenfield
> > Cc: 'The FerrariList'
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor
> >
> > I really want to adjust A/F at WOT.  Also, doesn't a KE Jetronic system 
> > become purely dependent on the mechanical screw adjustment at WOT?
> >
> > Jeff Greenfield wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > One more thing I forgot too mention ...
> >
> > If all you are doing is tweaking the fuel mixture on the stock CIS system,
> > you can read the duty cycle at the pulse (or sometimes called frequency)
> > valve with a meter that has this capability (fluke 88, for one). Simply set
> > the mixture such that the duty cycle is the same on both banks at idle and
> > you are done.
> >
> > Typically, the duty cycle should be around 55% or so. My QV won't run well
> > there, and I need to set it around 65-70%.
> >
> > There are other shade tree methods to do this too, but I won't admit any
> > knowledge of them :-)
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Greenfield [mailto:coyote [at] acme-ltd.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:53 PM
> > To: 'Martin Stark'
> > Cc: 'The FerrariList'
> > Subject: RE: [Ferrari] NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor
> >
> > No experience with the NGK unit.
> >
> > I have used some of the stuff from these guys (LM-1 and related stuff) with
> > good results. In the last few years they've come out with many new
> >   
> >
> > products.
> >
> >
> > http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php
> >
> > Whatever you use, you want to make sure that the controller has a
> > 'conventional' output. IOW, you install the wide band sensor in the
> >   
> >
> > existing
> >
> >
> > holes in your exhaust replacing the conventional o2 sensor. You then run
> >   
> >
> > the
> >
> >
> > output from the controller to the cars ecu.
> >
> > However, when you are tuning the engine, you want to do it in open loop
> >   
> >
> > with
> >
> >
> > the cars ecu disconnected from the oxygen sensor(s) otherwise you will not
> > get accurate results.
> >
> > Once you get the AFR where you want it (which should be close to 14:1
> >   
> >
> > during
> >
> >
> > part throttle cruise, and about 12.5:1 during WOT) you then reconnect the
> > oxygen sensor so that the ecu can help fine tune it within the range.
> >
> > If you are too far out of range, the system won't be able to compensate.
> > There is no reason to leave the ecu disconnected from the sensors, this
> >   
> >
> > will
> >
> >
> > only hurt performance and fuel economy. 
> >
> > Regardless of what mods have been done, tuning for performance, etc., and
> > internal combustion engine will still run best and make the most power at
> > close to an ideal AFR which is 14:1, which is exactly what the oxygen
> >   
> >
> > sensor
> >
> >
> > is designed to do.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:35 PM
> > To: Jeff Greenfield
> > Cc: The FerrariList
> > Subject: [Ferrari] NGK Powerdex AFX Wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Monitor
> >
> > I've been making small adjustments to my TR's fuel distributors' mixture 
> > settings and then reading the spark plugs to see if the banks are 
> > running at about the same A/F ratio.  In an effort the make the process 
> > more quantitative, I'm considering buying a pair of the NGK A/F ratio 
> > monitors and wonder if anyone on the list has had experience with them.
> > http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/air-fuel/index.asp?nav=19000
> > <http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/air-fuel/index.asp?nav=19000&country
> >    
> =
>  
>
> >    
> >
> > > &country=
> > >   
> > >
> > >      
> >   
> >
> > U
> >
> >
> > S
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