Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

[Dennis Liu (bigheaddennis]

Heel and toe, according to some, is double (de)clutching combined with braking, and trail braking in particular.  Though given modern transmissions and clutches, one can heel and toe without the double clutching part; the point being to match revs to the lower gear using the gas pedal, WHILE also braking the appropriate amount.  I'll typically double clutch because that's how I first learned (reading the 1st edition of the Bondurant book, with horrible b&w photos of doing it in an early 80s Mustang) and it IS smoother, though I will concede that it's no longer strictly necessary.

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From: LarryT [mailto:l02turner [at] comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:52 PM
To: Mike Fleischer
Cc: Dennis Liu; The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

Heel & Toe is a great way to hone skills when shifting - and it's satisfying when done right.

 

Just as satisfying is double clutching  - the way I was taught is:

In 4th (or whatever),

clutch in,

move lever to neutral,

clutch out,

rev engine to match engine and transmission speeds,

clutch in,

move lever to 3rd,

clutch out.

 

Anyone have other variations?

 

Perhaps double de-clutching is a better description?  This is something easily practiced when street driving. 

 

LarryT

OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
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From: Mike Fleischer

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:44 AM

To: Larry Turner

Cc: Dennis Liu ; The FerrariList

Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

Ah right,

Well its really experience based, any stick shift car can be heel and toed, I have done it in pickup trucks...  Some are easier to do than others...  Ferrari's actually have really perfect pedal placement for this, as do later model Porsche's (post 993), I never liked the pedals that hinge on the floor instead of from behind or above as on early 911's, but a smooth HT is very important in those cars, and a good double clutch shift on early cars also.  Part of the challenge of getting an older 911 to go through turns nose first the entire way :), but a 1972 RS is about the best, most enjoyable track toy ever built when its dialed in.

Heel-Toe is really a misnomer though, its more of a side to side roll of your foot on most sports cars, the right edge of your right foot rolls to the throttle to blip it while planted firmly on the brake pedal.  It should not matter how far down the brake pedal is as much as how accurately you can blip the throttle, and that is entirely dependent on your foot but also the engine's elasticity and torque delivery... 

My  current Vette is a bit of a pain because while it revs pretty quick its not quick enough and the torque available everywhere makes getting it just perfect a bit tricky, you can't be close, you have to be dead on our the rear end shakes (or the front if you don't give it enough I guess).  The M3 and Ferrari both revved high and had much less torque which made them easy to do it, my Boxster also...  My 01 Z06 was actually really good, it had the torque of my current Vette (and then some) but the engine would spin up much faster than my LS2 Vette's and was on a more predictable throttle curve.  My Miata worked pretty well, but once momentum was gained, much of a track was 4th gear, just hold on at ludicrous speeds through corners, and read a book down the straights.

Dennis may have more input on this, not sure if he still wears his instructor helmet occasionally?

Mike



Fellippe Galletta wrote:

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Mike <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Ok. You all have convinced me...  The vette is getting the loudest
street legal exhaust I can find for it...  Gonna make some babies and
Prius owners cry...

:-)
 

And anyone who has ever done a perfect heel-toe downshift at race
speeds would never trade that experience for paddles...  Never.

Very inspirational, thanks Mike!!

I hope to be able to execute a perfect heel/toe downshift at race speeds someday.....that's always been the thing I've wanted to learn how to do most ever since I learned how to drive stickshift.

Curious if we may side track on a "worthy" topic?

My biggest question is does it matter much really to a good heel/toer about pedal placement, width of pedals, and perhaps even pedals mounted from the floor as opposed from above??

Also I believe I was told heel/toe was far more natural at full sustained braking than casual driving given how much closer the brake pedal is to the floor than usual.

I remember heel & toeing WITH EASE (at age 20) a car that had the brake pedal go to the floor....shitty braking but oh such joy blipping that throttle. :)

FG

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