I'm not sure that it comes down to not
knowing what you're buying or being ignorant or incapable. It comes
down to connections, experience, knowledge, etc. A broker or dealer
who has been dealing in a certain item (Ferrari's, watches, wine,
diamonds, art, etc.) has way more connections, experience,
knowledge, etc. than the person who buys these types of items once a
year / decade / lifetime. The dealers and brokers know what is
available on the market (many times unadvertised pieces), they know
the history of a lot of the pieces ownership and race / damage /
service, etc.), and they know the market better than most other
people. Most high end items don't end up on cars.com, eBay or
Craigslist. Or even Ferrari Market Letter. Most aren't' advertised
publicly at all. I've found many many cars for clients over the
past few years that were never advertised anywhere. It was a word
of mouth deal that happened because of people I knew.
If you wanted to buy an F40 would you look at any of these places,
or would you defer to a broker / dealer who KNOWS the cars and the
people who own them / have them for sale? If you wanted an IF 3
karat diamond would you look in the paper? Or talk to a jeweler /
broker? Even huge collectors with multi-million dollar collections
have people who work for them in the purchase / maintenance / sale
of their cars, and there are always experts / brokers / dealers
involved. Always.
No offense, but if you are wealthy enough to purchase fine art,
jewelry, wine, autos, etc., I'll be that they way you made that
money wasn't dealing in the things you are looking to buy. And that
what you know about those items wouldn't fill a sheet of 8.5x11
paper. Sometimes it pays to defer to someone with the knowledge and
experience, and to pay them for their services.
Brian
On 10/21/11 4:50 PM, Britt2Asa [at] aol.com wrote:
The only point I would add to this (and it is a personal
opinion) is this: Gemstones are made by nature. there can
never be an exact duplicate. People who get turned on by this
pay loads of money because they believe they have something
very unique.
Most Ferraris are mass produced. There are many of them.
They are made by man. The factory that built them (and the
parts) can still build them in the original way, in the
original foundry, using the same materials. I'm not talking
about a perfect copy made in China but if it MADE BY FERRARI
than personally I wouldn't mind. I gather there are many
people who don't feel this way (and there are many people who
need brokers because they are incapable of buying a car
themselves) which is why the value is deemed to be higher when
it is all "original". Most engines would have been worked on
from new and I think it is a very unlikely event that even the
car with the most original engine actually has every part on
it the same as it left the factory.
Vintage planes aren't treated this way. Most parts are time
and hours sensitive. Unless the plane was never flown than it
on't have the same parts it left the factory with. Does this
affect the value of a P51 or a Spitfire?
Personally to me it doesn't but each to their own. No
offense to "brokers" but I would never use one/have never used
one and think if you have the money to buy a rare Ferrari and
are to ignorant to know what you are buying well then...you
deserve everything you get. A fool and his money...ect.
Just my thoughts. Interesting debate and after 11 years on
the List it's good to see it more active suddenly!
Regards
Britt
BR in the UK
1986 328GTS (LHD 89,940km) Died August 19, 2006 Shrewsbury
UK
1980 400i (RHD 74,000 miles)
Searching for the right 512TR
1997 Fiat Barchetta
1985 Bertone X1/9
2003 BMW 530d
1991 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
1993 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
2010 BMW 320d
To
tell you the truth, I have seen a real change in
this group and want to say I have enjoyed the
bander over the past week. There are so many
different idea's of Classiche, and why the price
for real authentic cars are high compared to
reconstructed cars.
In
the gemology world, G.I.A. trains anyone that is
in the business, to use their charts and tables.
They have basically set themselves up as the
expert in the field, they establish the
criteria, boundries. You can only call a Ruby a
Ruby and a Emerald a Emerald when it meets this
criteria. What's the difference between a fine
untreated Emerald and Green Beryl, about $50,000
a carat. There was a case where a world reknown
jewelry house sold a 15ct Fine Intense Emerald,
when they took the stone in to be set, the heat
from the jewelers torch caused the color to
fade. The stone was a Green Beryl, treated with
the correct color green epoxy. Of course the
company paid the money back, what if it was a
secret sale, that no one knew except the seller
and the buyer and no proof it happened.
At
GIA, on most gemstones, exactly like the Ferrari
factory that certifies authenticity, there is a
concerted team effort of experts who decide on
the true identity of a gemstone or the origin of
color. True Red Diamond, 1 ct, will run
approximatedly $1 million dollars/ct. There are
seven known true red diamonds, in the world
today, 6 of them are own by a wealthy woman in
Texas. Wouldn't it make sense that many people
might misread a color, especially when it is
their own stone and their profit to be made.
Intentional or not, you need a third unbiased
party to call the shots. Who has the final say,
GIA experts will have the final say in the
"Trueness" of the color.
I
have written numerous articles educating the
average person what to look for, when in doubt,
get a certification from GIA. There are numerous
Graduate Gemologist like myself. To get your GG
degree you had to identify gemstones, natural
and synthetic 100% during your final exam. This
does not make me qualifed to call a red Diamond
a red Diamond, but it does give me enough
information to know when to sent it in to a
company that can.
I
don't think Enzo Ferrari believed, "Buyer
Beware".
Douglas S. Le
Grand
Legrand LLC
Alternative
Investments
San Diego, CA
92111
858-380-6389
From:
Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com>
To:
Douglas <gemologist007 [at] yahoo.com>
Cc:
The FerrariList
<ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent:
Friday, October 21, 2011 11:52 AM
Subject:
Re: [Ferrari] Classiche
End of the day, they're all just cars. I
made a legitimate offer on a P car of $6.5M
in 2008 when I thought that this is where I
really wanted to spend money. I've since
come to the conclusion that I can have just
as much fun (and the same level of
headaches) off a $16k Mondial that used to
belong to another list member that I would
by liquidating part of my commercial real
estate portfolio to buy a car that doesn't
generate cash flow.
In other words, I sobered up and am happy
to still have paying tenants...
On Fri,
Oct 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM, George P. <ygpz4re [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
All,
Just to add a couple of lira to the
discussion... I have an acquaintance
here (and since it's up to them, not
me, to acknowledge this publicly, I'm
going to be deliberately vague) with a
vintage Ferrari racer.
Said racer suffered a thrown rod, so
the engine was rebuilt. Said racer
suffered another thrown rod, so the
engine was rebuilt again, but with
more investigation as to the cause.
Cause was determined to be an oil tank
which did not deliver sufficient
quantities of oil to the engine when
under high stress. So, oil tank was
redesigned, built, and installed.
Engine runs great.
But! When car was submitted for
Classiche certification, the oil tank
was deemed "inappropriate" and forced
to change back to original style.
Even though said oil tank was crap and
resulted in two engine failures.
[Speaking only for myself here, I find
it terribly hard to believe that
Ferrari/Classiche actually *KNEW* what
style/design of oil tank was
originally installed in that car, all
those years ago! But that's just
me....]
It was said earlier that some changes
are allowed by Classiche. I won't
argue this point, but will also say
"perhaps not always...." Or maybe it
just depends on who you are or how
deep your pockets are.
gp
[p.s. - SteveJ - Well said!!]
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