Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Ferrari Digest, Vol 98, Issue 85

Re: Ferrari Digest, Vol 98, Issue 85	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: Brian E. Buxton (BrianBuxtonBuxtonMotorsports.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 08:30:20 -0700 (PDT)

On a V8 Esprit? It's cheap. Timing belt service is waaaaay cheaper than any Ferrari. Clutch changes aren't' bad and the cars are actually really reliable ...

Facebook.com/BuxtonMotorsports

Twitter.com/BuxtonMsports

President, Brian Buxton Enterprises, Inc.
Nationwide Enclosed Auto Transportation

Founder & Past President
So. IN Region Porsche Club of America

On 10/1/14 6:23 AM, Clyde Romero wrote:

The maintenance on that car is staggering

Clyde Romero

In Victory you deserve Champagne
In Defeat You Need It!

If you obey all the rules

You miss all the fun !

On Oct 1, 2014, at 6:49 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

An '04 Lotus Esprit Turbo V8 going for mid 30s looks to be a damn fine bargain right now....

:)

FG

On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Clyde Romero <clyderomerof4 [at] bellsouth.net> wrote:

Wade sells Ferraris

All people in prison are innocent!

Do you see the similarities ?

It's just like the Porsche crowd going crazy for air cooled cars, paying stupid money no less

Spend 6 figure money for a shit box that leaks oil

What next Russian ZIL's? Yugos ?

Is there a room somewhere on this planet where whomever goes and turns a knob and says"this is the next big thing" shades of tickle me Elmo craze many years back and the cabbage patch dolls!

Please

They are cars Period end of statement and the 308 carb one was one the worst !

It was like the Apollo capsule, it liked to catch fire!

In victory you deserve Champagne

In defeat you need it!

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you follow all the rules

You miss all the fun!

Clyde Romero

Clyderomerof4 [at] bellsouth.net.

678 6419932

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail ( including attachments ) is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U. S. C., Sections 2510-2521, and is intended only for the persons or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, copying, forwarding or distribution is prohibited.

This email transmission, and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is priviledged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information containes in or attached to this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by reply e-mail at Clyde.romero [at] yahoo.com or  by telephone at (678 6419932)and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them or saving them to disk.

On Sep 30, 2014, at 11:05 PM, Dennis Burleson <d_burles [at] bellsouth.net> wrote:

Wade says his '85 308 Qv has an "agreed upon price" of $80K with Hagerty. I think I have seen this car, and I would agree. $80K would be a low number to replace this car "as is" in its current state of condition. That said, I would suppose a substantial amount of documentation would be required to justify this agreement with the bean counters at Hagerty.

A recent "news report" from Yahoo says that the next cars to stash away are the mid to late '80s TRs. ( heads up for Clyde). This leads me to believe that the 308 series are next in line for speculation (read: profits). Wade says that 308 profits are at least 20 to 30 years out. I just spent 383 days and about $15K in parts in a mechanical "re freshening." Original paint, otherwise it's ready to drive, and drive it I will. My Hagerty agreed upon value currently is $35K. This is more along the train of thought that Clyde alludes to.

As I have often said, "you take an old car and fix it up, and what do you have? A fixed up old car."

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

Way back when, who'd thunk that $3,000 was crazy for an old worn out 250 GTO?

I'm gonna pass this car on to my 18 year old son. I'll be working on Ferraris for Jesus in 20 years, so I won't be "here" to see what happens in the speculative sport of Ferrari ownership. Paying it forward, I suppose.

My humble 2 pennies.

DB

On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:01 PM, "ferrari-request [at] ferrarilist.com" <ferrari-request [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Hagerty 328 Valuation (Doug & Terri)
2. Re: Hagerty 328 Valuation (Clyde Romero)
3. Re: 456 issues (David)
4. Re: Hagerty 328 Valuation (LS)
5. Re: 456 issues (Clyde Romero)
6. Re: 456 issues (LarryT)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 07:55:22 -0700
From: "Doug & Terri" <dnt [at] dock.net>
To: "'Bob Ochsman'" <ochsman [at] gmail.com>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation
Message-ID: <001901cfdcbe$8f874e60$ae95eb20$@dock.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Bob notes ?Hagerty refused yesterday to place a declared value of $70,000 on my '88 328 GTS - 30,000 miles.?

Drat ? that?s a cold shot Bob. Well, Hagerty does evaluate a #2 car (a previous #1 Pebble Beach winner) with quite a high set of standards. An average value for a 328 between $45,000 and $59,725. Mix that in with the actuary?s tables (I knew an actuary once ? boring fellow who spent his time memorizing random digit tables and phone books) and they arrive at a risk they are willing to accept. Add to the mix where you live.

Since they usually only have your pictures they requested and your self-evaluation they draw up their underwriting conclusions. Yea or nay.

SO ? what I tell my associates ? enter your car in a concours or ANY graded car show. Most likely the numerical grade would place a fine car in the upper reaches of the chart and it IS a grade by LEARNED judges with their eyes ON your very car. Fact is ? because judges are human (most are, really) they even have a tendency to rate, um, middlin? cars higher than they should be ? after all, you don?t want to crush the poor owner?s heart ? but the car is out of contention for a trophy. Even a modest car is usually rated at least 85 out of a hundred points.

What I am getting at ? enter your car is a graded car show. Submit a copy of the judges sheets along with your pictures. Here you have given the insurer more to grade your car on than just a few two dimensional pictures of a three dimensional object and your loving words. After all ? does a mother EVER have an ugly kid?

Onward

DOUG

From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Bob Ochsman
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:11 AM
To: DOUG
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation

Their position

is that is too high a valuation. Their rep by phone said they would study the matter further and get back to me.

Now, before you guys get on my case that that's not a Clyde value, that is true. But to my mind, the declared value for insurance purposes should be the full retail value. In any case, I'm a customer who is willing to pay the insurance tab for this valuation.

I was motivated to raise the declared value on my car by both the valuation data in Cavallino and the values posted in the latest issue of Forza. While they may not be fully accurate, many potential buyers and sellers will baseline their negotiations against those numbers.

In any case, the situation is pending and the Hagerty rep said they'd come back to me with their final determination in a day or two.

Thoughts?

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 11:20:10 -0400
From: Clyde Romero <clyderomerof4 [at] bellsouth.net>
To: Doug & Terri <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation
Message-ID: <0CAF2456-F204-4087-A7F1-246B0EBE60D1 [at] bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The insurance companies are getting wise
They know that the auctions are inflated
Who in there right mind thinks a 328 is worth more than 30k ?
Auctions don't represent the actual street market

This might hurt some feeling but it is what it is

Much like the idiots who buy beach property and all of a sudden it's worth millions and we the tax payer have to subsidize the flood insurance

Realistically older Ferrari's are just that older cars
The hype no longer is sticking

For those with stupid deep pockets who want to brag they bought some 60's slush box God bless them

Like I have always said
If you want to know what God thought about money
Look who he gave it too !

Gotta go

Clyde Romero

In Victory you deserve Champagne
In Defeat You Need It!

If you obey all the rules
You miss all the fun !

> On Sep 30, 2014, at 10:55 AM, Doug & Terri <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:
>
> Bob notes ?Hagerty refused yesterday to place a declared value of $70,000 on my '88 328 GTS - 30,000 miles.?
>
> Drat ? that?s a cold shot Bob. Well, Hagerty does evaluate a #2 car (a previous #1 Pebble Beach winner) with quite a high set of standards. An average value for a 328 between $45,000 and $59,725. Mix that in with the actuary?s tables (I knew an actuary once ? boring fellow who spent his time memorizing random digit tables and phone books) and they arrive at a risk they are willing to accept. Add to the mix where you live.
>
> Since they usually only have your pictures they requested and your self-evaluation they draw up their underwriting conclusions. Yea or nay.
>
> SO ? what I tell my associates ? enter your car in a concours or ANY graded car show. Most likely the numerical grade would place a fine car in the upper reaches of the chart and it IS a grade by LEARNED judges with their eyes ON your very car. Fact is ? because judges are human (most are, really) they even have a tendency to rate, um, middlin? cars higher than they should be ? after all, you don?t want to crush the poor owner?s heart ? but the car is out of contention for a trophy. Even a modest car is usually rated at least 85 out of a hundred points.
>
> What I am getting at ? enter your car is a graded car show. Submit a copy of the judges sheets along with your pictures. Here you have given the insurer more to grade your car on than just a few two dimensional pictures of a three dimensional object and your loving words. After all ? does a mother EVER have an ugly kid?
>
> Onward
>
> DOUG
>
>
> From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Bob Ochsman
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:11 AM
> To: DOUG
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation
>
> Their position
> is that is too high a valuation. Their rep by phone said they would study the matter further and get back to me.
>
> Now, before you guys get on my case that that's not a Clyde value, that is true. But to my mind, the declared value for insurance purposes should be the full retail value. In any case, I'm a customer who is willing to pay the insurance tab for this valuation.
>
> I was motivated to raise the declared value on my car by both the valuation data in Cavallino and the values posted in the latest issue of Forza. While they may not be fully accurate, many potential buyers and sellers will baseline their negotiations against those numbers.
>
> In any case, the situation is pending and the Hagerty rep said they'd come back to me with their final determination in a day or two.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/clyderomerof4%40bellsouth.net
>
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> and F1 Headlines
> http://www.F1Headlines.com/
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:24:58 -0700
From: "David" <david [at] tynerroberts.com>
To: "'Fellippe Galletta'" <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 456 issues
Message-ID: <F087F58DEB6546038E73BEE67D9EF669@X120>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Window ECUs suck and are NLA, fuel pump assemblies are crap and components
are NLA (pump is available, but is useless without the various rubber bits
to mount it in the tank), seat ECUs are NLA, and the list goes on. It isn't
that the parts are expensive (they are), it's that they just aren't
available.

Engine wise both cars are pretty good, but with the 456 prices so low, there
is usually a lot of deferred maintenance - just like 308s a few years ago.

456M is the preferred option, but has the exact same issues as a regular
456. 550 is a much better bet but still suffers fuel pump issues with no
parts available.

Remember, there is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari - purchase price is only
the beginning.

HTH, Dave

_____

From: Ferrari
[mailto:ferrari-bounces+david=tynerroberts.com [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of
Fellippe Galletta
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:33 AM
To: David
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: [Ferrari] 456 issues

A coworker asked me about the 456, and I told him it's a wonderful value for
a modern V12 F.

Just that it has a few potential issues that could quickly add up to the
price of the car, hehe.

So what were they exactly?

I remember something about the windows, maybe windshield too. Also the auto
trans could be an expensive rebuild (but nobody wants an auto 456!).

I can't imagine it would be too bad.

Looking at the V12 universe, it looks to be a good value. Even better than
the Maranello possibly...

FG
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 09:18:14 -0700
From: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
To: Bob Ochsman <ochsman [at] gmail.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation
Message-ID:
    <1412093894.76652.YahooMailNeo [at] web120205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bob, switch to Grundy. I just cranked up my agreed upon values based on current selling prices and they did not flinch. The rates didn't really even go up that much.

LS

central
wines-spirits est 1934

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

centralwines.com

facebook.com/CentralLiquors

202-737-2800

________________________________
From: Bob Ochsman <ochsman [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:11 AM
Subject: [Ferrari] Hagerty 328 Valuation

Hagerty refused yesterday to place a declared value of $70,000 on my '88 328 GTS - 30,000 miles. Their position

is that is too high a valuation. Their rep by phone said they would study the matter further and get back to me.

Now, before you guys get on my case that that's not a Clyde value, that is true. But to my mind, the declared value for insurance purposes should be the full retail value. In any case, I'm a customer who is willing to pay the insurance tab for this valuation.

I was motivated to raise the declared value on my car by both the valuation data in Cavallino and the values posted in the latest issue of Forza. While they may not be fully accurate, many potential buyers and sellers will baseline their negotiations against those numbers.

In any case, the situation is pending and the Hagerty rep said they'd come back to me with their final determination in a day or two.

Thoughts?

_________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 17:39:23 -0400
From: Clyde Romero <clyderomerof4 [at] bellsouth.net>
To: David <david [at] tynerroberts.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 456 issues
Message-ID: <96B2AF6C-2A01-45F1-81F6-9EDE7905BC66 [at] bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What's with the 550 fuel pump?
Never heard of any issues

In victory you deserve Champagne
In defeat you need it!

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you follow all the rules
You miss all the fun!

Clyde Romero
Clyderomerof4 [at] bellsouth.net.
678 6419932

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail ( including attachments ) is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U. S. C., Sections 2510-2521, and is intended only for the persons or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, copying, forwarding or distribution is prohibited.
This email transmission, and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is priviledged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information containes in or attached to this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by reply e-mail at Clyde.romero [at] yahoo.com or by telephone at (678 6419932)and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them or saving them to disk.

> On Sep 30, 2014, at 11:24 AM, David <david [at] tynerroberts.com> wrote:
>
> Window ECUs suck and are NLA, fuel pump assemblies are crap and components are NLA (pump is available, but is useless without the various rubber bits to mount it in the tank), seat ECUs are NLA, and the list goes on. It isn't that the parts are expensive (they are), it's that they just aren't available.
>
> Engine wise both cars are pretty good, but with the 456 prices so low, there is usually a lot of deferred maintenance - just like 308s a few years ago.
>
> 456M is the preferred option, but has the exact same issues as a regular 456. 550 is a much better bet but still suffers fuel pump issues with no parts available.
>
> Remember, there is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari - purchase price is only the beginning.
>
> HTH, Dave
>
> From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+david=tynerroberts.com [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Fellippe Galletta
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:33 AM
> To: David
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: [Ferrari] 456 issues
>
> A coworker asked me about the 456, and I told him it's a wonderful value for a modern V12 F.
>
> Just that it has a few potential issues that could quickly add up to the price of the car, hehe.
>
> So what were they exactly?
>
> I remember something about the windows, maybe windshield too. Also the auto trans could be an expensive rebuild (but nobody wants an auto 456!).
>
> I can't imagine it would be too bad.
>
> Looking at the V12 universe, it looks to be a good value. Even better than the Maranello possibly...
>
> FG
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/clyderomerof4%40bellsouth.net
>
> Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 20:00:55 -0400
From: LarryT <L02turner [at] comcast.net>
To: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 456 issues
Message-ID: <542B4437.2090907 [at] comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

A 550 parked next to me at a car even a couple of years ago and I was
amazed at how small it was. We were in a early 90s E Class and it was
the same size or smaller. More beautiful in person of course....

LarryT

On 9/30/2014 10:26 AM, Doug & Terri wrote:
>
> Charles notes about the 456 ". . . and nearly invisible in traffic."
>
> There was a time we was looking for an F550 or F575. However with its
> front end overhang it cannot negotiate my steep driveway. Alas. BUT,
> that said, in my internet research travels one owner quipped "One
> thing nice about the F550 is you will not be bothered in store parking
> lots with hordes of gawkers or pick-up trucks trying to race you on
> the road ways - - no one knows it is a Ferrari." Ah ah ah I still
> like the car -- alas yet again.
>
> DOUG
>
> *From:*Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Charles Perry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:02 AM
> *To:* DOUG
> *Cc:* The FerrariList
> *Subject:* Re: [Ferrari] 456 issues
>
> As I understand it, it is the window regulators that are the problems.
> They fail and are heinously expensive to replace ($2-3k each). When
> failed, the windows can't go up and/or down and I believe the 456 does
> drop the window a few mm when opening or closing doors to clear the
> body seals. If the regulators are broken it can't do that, risking
> breaking expensive glass. Susie's Boxster has the same issue but much
> cheaper to fix.
>
> Don't know anything about the auto trans, except that Ferrari sources
> them elsewhere, so I'm sure some of the same problems as plagued the
> 400/412 series apply.
>
> They do get the sticky interior problem that all Ferraris of that era
> had, but that's easy to address.
>
> Some more info here:
>
> http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_0212.shtml
>
> http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/used-car-buying-guides/used-car-buying-guide-ferrari-456-1992-2003
>
> Seems like a strong value if you can deal with the blandish styling. I
> had Stan Luthi's dark green/tan car for a few days some years back and
> it was a lot of fun, and nearly invisible in traffic. Good q-ship road
> trip car for sure...
>
> *From:*Ferrari
> [mailto:ferrari-bounces+charles=carolina-sound.com [at] ferrarilist.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Fellippe Galletta
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:33 AM
> *To:* Charles Perry
> *Cc:* The FerrariList
> *Subject:* [Ferrari] 456 issues
>
> A coworker asked me about the 456, and I told him it's a wonderful
> value for a modern V12 F.
>
> Just that it has a few potential issues that could quickly add up to
> the price of the car, hehe.
>
> So what were they exactly?
>
> I remember something about the windows, maybe windshield too. Also the
> auto trans could be an expensive rebuild (but nobody wants an auto 456!).
>
> I can't imagine it would be too bad.
>
> Looking at the V12 universe, it looks to be a good value. Even better
> than the Maranello possibly...
>
> FG
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/l02turner%40comcast.net
>
> Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
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> http://www.F1Headlines.com/

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Re: Ferrari Digest, Vol 98, Issue 85, (continued)

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