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Re: Ferrari Digest, Vol 113, Issue 48
From: Erik Nielsen (judge4regmail.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:29:41 -0800 (PST)
FG:

It all depends what you want to do with the car as to what is “best” from a engine layout/location perspective.

Daily driver to abuse and pass on with deferred maintenance issues?  In cocaine white with the logo plastered in 16 locations should you forget which car you are driving?

Sporting gran turismo that can cover long distances in more comfort than flying cattle class?  While wearing an ascot?

To “fit in” at the staff parking lot of the local medical center where everyone really does make their car buying choices by reading Road and Track?

Track toy?  Real or pretend?
Short track with lots of turns?  
Long track with minimal downforce needed?
An autocross in a parking lot with young professionals that have put their entire life savings (read: $5k) into an E36 M3?
To rev at the stop light when the inevitable 5.0 GT Mustang pulls up next to you wanting to race causing you to void the warranty and push the launch control button and hoping that the electronics hide the driver’s lack of talent?

Something to impress he Gucci loafer crowd at the next Cars & Coffee event?  To make them green with envy?  To make their mail order eastern european bride realize that she left money on the table?

Something that gets you that primo spot with the valet at your local overpriced steakhouse on a Friday night, the one that still is pushing a $85 tomahawk ribeye as their preferred cut, whose shape/performance/color/sound you think attracts the “ladies” (not the working variety), but only makes you look like a pedophile since really only 12 year old boys are attracted to it like moths to a bug zapper?

Well, what do you want to do?

Respectfully,
Erik

On Dec 28, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

C'mon Lash....
for all it's faults, the Pantera puts a nice heavy motor low and well ahead of the rear wheels!!



From: LS via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
To: Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> 
Cc: Ferrari List <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Digest, Vol 113, Issue 48

FG, I believe PP is referring to the flat 12 (or 180 deg 12) having its trans underneath the motor as being less than ideal.

Mid engine, either rear (308) or front (Viper or modern Corvette), would be ideal from a platform standpoint when executed properly.
 
LSJ

central 
wines-spirits   est 1934

625 e street nw
washington, dc 20004



202-737-2800





From: Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> 
Cc: Ferrari List <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Digest, Vol 113, Issue 48

Peter,

I wouldn't dismiss the mid-engine layout and call the front engine superior.

From what I gathered in the rags back when the 550 Maranello came out, front was good enough for 99% of drivers (even really good ones). 

Over time we moved from tactile sensations in our exotics (manual steering, heavy shifters and clutches) to outright delivery of performance (semi-auto transmissions primarily), so front solved the liability issue.

Also, front was/is better for packaging. This is the bigger reason for it, with the above being the justification to the enthusiasts. 

Mid-engine was mostly relegated to the exotic-ness of it, looks wise, sound wise, etc. There's a practical limit to the exotic look a front engined car can have, which is why all the hyper car Fs are still mid-engined, even though I'm sure they could/would engineer a front engined beast to compete with the 918 or P1. Since there's no practical element whatsoever to those line of cars, it will forever be mid engined.

At the same time, hard to make that proper gentleman's GT in mid engine I think. Which is why you'll probably never see your derivative Aston Martin in anything but front engined configuration.

FG

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Peter Pless <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au> wrote:
Lol…they improved the brakes maybe, but they weren’t “fixed”…not by a long shot
 
The person who came up with putting the engine above the gearbox should be shot!...AND…how many cylinders behind the rear wheels? 4? Center of gravity just below moon level. If they were so good, why don’t they make them any more? They went back to the Daytona front engine V12 design!
 
Let’s face it, those cars were designed to do high speeds in straight lines, and they did it well……but start throwing corners into the mix and I’d rather be in any same period Porsche thanks!
 
Come on Clyde, we all love our cars, but we have to accept their flaws, no matter how bad….and for the owner of a 512TR to pick on any other car because it’s (allegedly) tail happy is comical.
 
Personally, I’ve only driven Porsches from the ‘80s on, and I found them far from tail happy. They have better rear grip than anything I’ve ever driven and with the engine down so low, the cornering is always excellent….BUT…correct set up is critical.
 
Peter
 
From: clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com [mailto:clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 29 December 2015 5:31 AM
To: Peter Pless
Cc: Ferrari List
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Digest, Vol 113, Issue 48
 
They fixed the brake issue in the 512 TR
Clyde Romero
 
If you have no enemies
You have no character ! 
 
In Victory you deserve Champagne
In Defeat You Need It!
<image002.jpg>
If you obey all the rules
You miss all the fun !
 
 







On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:38 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:
The TR’s were definitely not track ready, especially the brakes.  I’ll defer to Charles to explain exactly what he said when the middle pedal went to the floor with nothing happening at Talledega many years ago...
 
 
On Dec 28, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
 
Well, there is that....
 
In my world (not recommended for anyone), the TRs were never really "sports cars" intended for cornering as Peter brought up.  They were built for the US market, point and shoot, freeway eaters.  And they are damn good at that!  Get near a track and I'd bet on the German tail slapper.   Unless said track has a really long straight. 
 
Just my 2 pesos...
Rick

On Dec 28, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:
Or that TTO is one of the few appealing things about an older 911.....for those that can handle it at least.
 
 
 
On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Peter Pless <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au> wrote:
Is anyone else amused that the owner of a 512TR makes fun of a Porsche for having trailing throttle oversteer? 
 
Just sayin’
 
From: Doug & Terri [mailto:dnt [at] dock.net] 
Sent: Sunday, 27 December 2015 4:59 PM
To: Peter Pless
Cc: 'Ferrari List'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Digest, Vol 113, Issue 48
 
RM notes “That was always the fun of coming up behind a 911 variant on track.”
 
Picture this – 1978 Lemans – The Porsche 935’s twin KKK turbos were getting beaten right at the end of the Mulsanne Straight.  After the race, Porsche guys talked with Renault team and asked them how they always managed to snooker them at that corner.  Easy was the reply – going down Mulsanne Straight you turbos turn white hot.  When our driver saw them go from white to yellow to orange - - - we knew you were off the gas.  Voila.  Snooker.
DOUG

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