Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Middle Driver's Seat in New Mclaren

[Lashdeep Singh (lashdeep]

I like the current Challenger interior myself.

Then again, I love the F40 interior too.

The AMG GTR is a respectable car, if you must buy Benz.

First of all, it is really, really expensive. I picked the GT because it is only roughly twice the price of a Camaro ZL1 yet so far behind in materials.

The GTR adds another multiple of cost?

The Ring time is very good. Excellent even.

How did AMG, typically not known for performance engineering, pull this car out of a hat and climb so high and quickly into the upper echelon of track cars?

It has tied the 2010 Viper ACR which was long considered the holy grail for performance engineering. Very impressive.

To be equal to the prior generation Viper is no small feat.

How was this done?

First of all, they used a "Viper chassis config" and its front-mid layout. When the companies were merged, they surely saw the Le Mans success that Dodge enjoyed and astutely copied it, or rather, didn't screw it up.

Secondly, they are using the Multimatic DSSV shocks which are state of the art. These were developed by GM for the 2014 Camaro Z28 for the first production car application.

They could not match this GM/Multimatic development so they decided to just buy it from them.

Again, smart move.

Their very special GTR tire is borrowed directly from, and was developed specifically for, the current Vette Z06.

Again, AMG couldn't or wouldn't try to develop anything better so why not buy the best from someone else who did all the legwork?

As sort of a Viper/Camaro/Corvette technology greatest hits album, it is interesting and effective.

As long as AMG keeps on this "copy someone else's homework" philosophy, they will create a performance image out of thin air as they have started with the GTR.

Their target demographic isn't going to compare parts and borrowed tech like we do.

Then again, that's why we have this List...

On Mar 9, 2018, at 09:35, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I don't have an issue with that Challenger interior, but the ones who expect great interiors as part of the experience will be disappointed.

There's something about the American mentality with interior design that is unique and wanting to be different I think. The European interiors have a common element as do the Japanese, and I feel the two are closer to each other than the American interior is to any of them. Even American brands that are built in different markets often are un-American, like the Holdens in Australia (and the Pontiacs/Chevy SS they bring to the US). My GTO had its limitations in terms of interior parts but was a lot closer to the ideal feel and look of a Euro car than most any American car I've seen.

Even still this is an area where you've got guys like Nielsen complaining that a 2019 Bentley interior is not up to par.....so just about every car is up for criticism.

With regards to the AMG GT, I've never been a particular fanboy of the car but that GT R seems to be really, really good. While your experience with the standard GT was underwhelming, every single magazine that does hot laps has the GT R coming in faster than a GT3 RS and other similar exotics. A Mercedes Benz AMG of all cars is on some tracks is the fastest track weapon you can buy up to near seven figure level. I can't comment at all on feel, rawness, purity, etc....but objectively, the car throws down.

I'd rather have an SLS I think for the gullwing doors and the great tune on that 6.2 NA V8, but the GT R is hard to knock.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:30 PM, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:

We are definitely, absolutely,  100% only talking about engineering prowess and the resulting track performance in this discussion.

However, if you want to go there...

Build quality and quality of materials?

Have you looked at an AMG GT in person? 

I had the opportunity at an F1 race last year. It was proudly displayed on the factory AMG stand with some very dedicated AMG personnel.

The rear brakes look like they came from a base model Ford Fiesta.

Where are the standard carbon brakes? Or, carbon wheels?

Where are the cutting edge tires developed strictly for that chassis by AMG's racing department? Only off the shelf, 3 yr old technology rubber for this AMG?

Even the wiper arms and blades were of a type that I had not seen in 20 yrs.

If there were no badges on that car, I would guess it would list at $30k. 

It is made up of low end junk parts.

It is sad when a gearhead teenager can spot, in 20 seconds, how much nicer the materials and parts on a new Camaro are compared to the AMG GT.

We are only talking about engineering, chassis development, track performance, performance hardware, styling and reliability.

Interior will never be a "win" because it is subjective. No American car can ever have a "nice interior". That would constitute a defeat for the Euro car enthusiasts as there would be nothing left to criticize.

Most of the domestic performance cars have Recaro race seats. 

They are the creme de la creme of European racing manufacturers. 

Flat bottom, suede steering wheels? Suede touch points for shifter and dashboard? Polished metal pedal covers? Advanced infotainment system with an *integrated* touch screen (not the horrible glued on iPad look of the Europeans)? Heads up display?

Check. Check. Check.

In the early 80s, domestic cars were ugly, slow, clumsy, non-handling, non-braking, unreliable and had terrible interiors.

Now, all of the problems have been solved and then some. 

The one unsolvable item is the "nice interior". 

I, for one, have no idea what that really means.

I do, however, know what a lot of really expensive parts look like when I see them on the outside of a car. Especially if they are all made to make the car go faster.

Here is a pic of the "terrible" current domestic car interior which happens to be applauded by most of the current journalists/interior experts.

<image1.JPG>

On Mar 8, 2018, at 19:32, Brian E. Buxton <BrianBuxton@BuxtonMotorsports.com> wrote:

Track performance maybe but if you sit in them the build quality and quality of the materials used inside and out still justifies why they are so much less expensive.

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On 3/8/18 3:20 AM, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari wrote:

FG, I was just reading an article about the new ZR1 which will surely be under 7:00 at the Ring when it makes an official run.

It may even challenge for fastest production street car ever.

Impressive when you consider that the current C6 Z06 is in the sub 7:10 range (estimated)  and even the old C6 ZR1 is still in the mix with all of the current exotics.

The fact that the Corvette has shown to be a seriously engineered track weapon in the sub $500k category for the last 12 yrs is very impressive. 

Even scarier is that the $69k Camaro ZL1 1LE is also more developed and faster than most current exotics under $500k. I surely would not want to be in a 488, Mclaren 650S or 911GT2 at VIR with a new Camaro on my tail.

It is a great time to be a track enthusiast!

On Mar 5, 2018, at 15:35, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

All this silly arguing.....LOL.

There are guys on Fchat, Lambopower who question the merit of an F12 or Superfast because it cannot outrun a McLaren 720S in a 1/4 or 1/2 mile race.....comical what people will debate over.

I love that there is legitimate competition amongst cars in 2018. Back in 1998, you threw in a Corvette in the big boy comparo to be nice but you knew ultimately it didn't have a shot at winning.

I'm not so sure the Vettes are the ultimate sport/track car Lashdeep, but they are plenty good enough and they are visceral. 

As for mid/rear vs. mid/front, Ferrari decided back with the Maranello that mid/front was good enough dynamically for most drivers that the more exotic layout wasn't needed for handling prowess. So far they have been correct all along. 

Of course I believe you would concur that from a purely visceral standpoint, a mid engine (classical) car is the pinnacle for your exotic driving experiences. If it went away, Lamborghini would go out of the business the next day. All of the Ferrari hypercars will always be mid engined for the same reason. It can turn what would be an absolutely boring car into something "interesting".....(Toyota MR2/MR2 Spider for instance).

A mid-engined special edition Vette model that goes all out to battle exotics would be fascinating to see. You keep your bread and butter front engined cars to keep the revenue up, and essentially make your Ford GT competitor. Such a car would probably need to offer a dual clutch transmission in addition to the stickshift, maybe even delve into the DOHC/flat plane crank arena.....but no matter what, would need to have a proper high end interior. The vette has come a long, long way with the C7 (as did the Gen 5 Vipers) in this department......and they might have to go a bit more. 

Excited to see what comes of this. I bet GM would make a "more fun" car than McLaren could.

FG 

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:

Agree, I haven't been on a straight road without traffic in years.

If you want to go fast in a straight line, buy a Turbo Porsche, Ferrari or Mclaren.

If you want to turn or stop, like we do, the Vette is the reference standard.

Most of the traditional exotic car guys I know have their vintage Italian icon and a new domestic car for track days.

Keep the 512TR for nostalgia, sex appeal, visceral thrills, harmonious sound and artistic appreciation.

Then, get a new Camaro to positively ruin any exotic car under $1m at VIR, Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta or the Ring.

Welcome to 2018!

On Mar 4, 2018, at 17:14, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Speed is nice

I want something that can corner!

At VIR I watched a Mazda Best one of your precious vettes with better lap times

     RF4-4EVR

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    

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On Mar 3, 2018, at 10:56 PM, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

You are right!

Also, the girl with the pushup bra can run faster than the one with the big chest.

On Mar 3, 2018, at 23:47, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Mid is mid Lash

A girl with a push up bra just makes you think she has bigger tits than they really are!

     RF4-4EVR

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    

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On Mar 3, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

They have for years actually.

Corvettes are front-mid and you are thinking about rear-mid like in a Ferrari.

They already have 50-50 weight distribution which is part of their track prowess. That in itself is superior to a rear-mid car.

Going rear-mid could be a major downgrade since they have been outperforming everyone else for years.

They need to sell more cars to people who think rear-mid is superior, so they need to dumb it down.

Clyde, you know the routine, dumb new car civilians will buy what they think is the "best" and not what actually is technically fastest on the stopwatch at the Ring or VIR.

I hope they continue to offer the "front" engined car with pushrods for us geeks who want the latest design and performance numbers.

They can sell the clumsy mid engined, overhead cam GT model to the dentists at Cars and Coffee dying to fit in with the Lambo crowd.

On Mar 3, 2018, at 17:25, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Corvette 

Are you kidding 

They won’t even embrace the mid engine concept 

Just remember this

Fiberglass is for boats!

     RF4-4EVR

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    

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On Mar 3, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/driving-from-the-middle-of-the-car-is-about-to-make-a-comeback-here-are-the-pros-and-cons/ar-BBJljrd?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Pretty useful driver configuration.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a Corvette sometime soon since GM is a groundbreaker in new technology.

LSJ
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