Just a reminder, everything is for sale over there right now. Make an offer...
On Nov 12, 2020, at 11:41 AM, Luke Graves <buyer1 [at] airmail.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff, out of curiosity, what kind of commission does
a salesman get on say a Boeing 737?
Clyde,
As an airline pilot you were immune from what was really going on in
aircraft transactions by those in the room making it happen.
Every aircraft buyer and seller wants to believe that they got the best
deal. For various reasons they do not want the outside world to
know their business. Maybe they ultimately agreed to a discount
that they told everyone would never be accepted. Maybe there was a
different consideration that came into play beyond just the direct
asset. Maybe they just don't want anyone to know how much
the lump of cash actually is or isn't. If you were not one
of the parties directly in the deal it is none of anyone elses damn
business.
Boeing imposes confidentiality on their new aircraft sales.
Airlines are not paying list prices but the exact discounts and other
considerations in the contracts are just rumors to everyone else. I've
personally done a Boeing deal over a multi-piece Master Change where there
were discounts that had to be hidden since one of the elements was a fixed price
from that component manufacturer. This would not have been an issue except
that there were different incorporation dates for the
elements.
With a Gulfstream they maybe can't show a discount on the airframe but
there could be consideration given on the outfitting or ASC
incorporations. In cases like that they don't want everyone to know that
the allegedly non-negotiable items really can be.
.
Jeff
Sounds like your a car dealer
No vendetta with me whatsoever
With regards to aircraft that is such a small market no one cares
If you can afford a plane
Money isn’t an issue
The saying goes
If you have to ask how much, you can’t afford it !
No so much with cars
And speaking of clauses
Why would you want a confidentiality clause ?
What are you hiding ?
It gets back to that
Unscrupulous dealers and those publications who contribute to the whole
cycle of sale pricing
If you’re good with it fine
Not me
I was very glad when
Deregulation came about in 1978
Air fares went down, more people could fly
More jobs etc
Airline ticket prices became open and the internet changed that as
well
And I am a former airline pilot !
Secret squirrel stuff is for kids
Being open and honest about transactions makes everyone feel that they
got a deal
![]() RF4-4EVR
Scars are Tattoos with better stories !
If you have no enemies, you have no character !
Clyde Romero
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Clyde,
You continue to beat this pricing issue like it is some sort of
vendetta.
Housing prices have to be disclosed and become public record.
Cars, not so much.
Aircraft are like cars. Some deals are even written up as "$1.00
and other valuable consideration" so only those in the room actually
know. Even the offering letters have
confidentiality clauses.
Headed to the Tanker for a top off
Noses cold
Mask down !
Bottom line
I read the WSJ everyday
Weekly there is a section called mansion
Where they show case homes that have sold in the millions, the
Hampton's, MIami, you name it
Actual prices that can be verified through reputable real estate
companies
Housing traditionally cost more than cars
Even the rare cars
So how come you can see the actual selling price of homes in the
millions
Yet you can’t get actual selling pricing of Ferrari sales?
What’s the catch here?
Other than the falsehoods of the dealers and publications such as FML
and CAV hyping the prices needlessly
Are you getting it now ?
Got the offload
Headed to the pattern for some bounces
![]() RF4-4EVR
Scars are Tattoos with better stories !
If you have no enemies, you have no character !
Clyde Romero
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Clyde,
Some fact checking is in order.
Why would FML if they were a true yardstick of Ferrari pricing
let anyone offer a 1978 308 car for over $300k?
It’s a fiberglass shitbox that catches fire ! Ask around, that’s
why there aren’t many left!
- No such thing as a 1978 fiberglass/Vetroresina car.
- The Vetroresinas were very low production - 808 is a quoted
worldwide number.
- The Vetroresina cars are a claimed 150 kg lighter than the
subsequent steel GTBs.
- Some have been fully restored by competent shops. I have
seen one that was done by Motion Products so one would
expect that came with a very a substantial bill.
- If the subject car is a European model it would have a dry sump
motor - never a North America build feature.
In MIL!
Dealer listings are based on FML asking prices
It’s like a breeder reactor
Bullshit in
Bullshit out
It feeds on it self
FML wants nothing to do with BaT or eBay pricing
They FML consider themselves the sole source for Ferrari pricing
in the world !
They say this in their advertising
It took a while but the internet has drastically changed how
Ferrari cars are bought and sold
Pictures right away
Services records
Talk to the previous owners
None of that happened with FML
None of this occurred before the internet and cars were being
sold at rip off prices
Which kept hundreds out of the market
Why would FML if they were a true yardstick of Ferrari pricing
let anyone offer a 1978 308 car for over $300k?
It’s a fiberglass shitbox that catches fire ! Ask around, that’s
why there aren’t many left!
It’s just so he can take his money every year in the ad
It’s equivalent to offering a homeless shelter as a
mansion!
You see that car on any other website, hmm interesting isn’t
it.
Same goes for the ridiculous priced Pista or any of the other
multi million dollar oldey but goody Ferrari cars in the
deceptive publication called FML.
CAV they think there stuff doesn’t stink and they have a
following like some banana republic dictator
I subscribed to
CAV back in the day when there were few publications on
Ferrari
When I saw they were nothing more than fluff and could not tell
the difference between a INDY car and a F-1 car I punched.
There are still those out there who fall into the trap, they are
far and few between at least I hope so
With regards to the dealer in MONTRÉAL he was a different egg. He
actually sold cars but did want the owners to drive them!
I went to the GP up there and drove the 512 TR and met some of
the local club members and that is what they said.
Canadians had the most 348’s I have ever seen!
Idle decent!
![]()
RF4-4EVR
Scars are Tattoos with better stories !
If you have no enemies, you have no character !
Clyde Romero
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Clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com or by telephone
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disk.
The friend Rob is referring to was the dealer in
Montreal, Mr. Luigi Della Grotta, who held the franchise from the
mid-‘60s to 2000. Mr. Luigi passed away in 2012. If it wasn’t for
his patience and encouragement, I never would’ve pursued a passion
towards these cars and, eventually get one (especially at an early
age).
There’s no doubt of the significance of Gerald’s
contribution to the Ferrari world, through his meticulous research
into the histories of these cars. If it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t
have been able to start the research into my own car’s history. I
subscribed shortly after submitting my S/N info to him, which he
gave me all of the times my car was listed for sale in his
publication back in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s (when the car was
located in North Carolina).
Again, the point I would like clarification on
is, I can’t remember exactly how it is compiled, but how does FML
come up with the prices that they state? I know they take various
results from public auctions and also dealer listings, but where
else? Does it now include sources like BaT and Ebay? These two
latter examples could significantly alter valuations.
I need another car like a hole in my head, but I
have been thinking about a second Ferrari (328) and the price range
I’ve been seeing between examples is staggering.
Peter
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Friends,
I agree here with Jeff, Gerald was a significant
figure in the Ferrari community and was always kind to
me.
Whether you agree with the prices he posted, when
I was looking for a vintage V12, that was the
first
magazine I subscribed to, looking to find
sellers. All the magazine trade in politics concerning prices,
whether it
is asking, selling or value. I got in a small
scuffle with the guys at Cavallino when they were saying the
highest
price of a GT4 was 25K, after 3 just sold for
150K+. To me it is not wether you agree with the numbers,
but
rather if they are accurate or not. That is what
is really going on, but as we have seen even on BAT
some
cars sell for prices that are insane to
others!
Gerald was based in the Atlanta area and curious
if Clyde you ever got to met him? All the guys at FAF
gave
me the utmost support in being a young guy that
wanted a Ferrari someday and I think they are one of
just
a few that were like this, including Peter’s
friend in Montreal. I agree with 99.9% of anything Clyde says
but
think he may be being a bit harsh. Like Jeff said
every issue had an in depth look at different models, including
the
GT4 and what to look for for prospective buyers.
And love it or hate it is is part of the trinity of Ferrari
mags…
<ferrari heart.jpg>
FML has a very important history. Gerald
Roush was a trained historian and approached tracking the early
Ferraris seriously (as opposed to many others back then that
told/repeated rampant falsehoods). As part of that Gerald kept
files on every Ferrari serial number he could. That is why
serial numbers are required whenever there is an ad in
FML.
FML was created when Gerald was still working at
FAF in Atlanta at a time when there might be ads in R&T,
Autoweek, Sunday NYT and Sunday LA Times. FML provided a way
to find a large portion of the assorted Ferraris for sale in a
single place. Gerald also reviewed the submissions to
avoid a seller making spurious claims about provenance. Plus,
Gerald wrote a cover article on some aspect of Ferrari-ness.
These were in the days prior to Cavallino and
Forza.
Some here take pleasure in deriding how FML uses
asking prices for their valuation guides. Stop and think about
it. To what degree would you be confident that either a buyer
or seller is (a) going to divulge a transaction price and (b) if
they do, will it be fully accurate. For a very small operation
like FML putting together a publication every 2 weeks, how much
sense would it make for them to chase across the US and the rest of
the world talking to pricing sources that might or might not have
their own agendas. Maybe it is more relevant to using the
% +/- section of the guide to gauge seller
sentiment.
FML does regularly give auction results if one
wishes to see some actual transaction
prices.
I also never understood or paid much attention
to FML.
And charting asking prices was more than a
little odd.
If it wasn’t for Clyde, I would never be
reminded that it still existed!
Correct
price?
Willing
seller – willing buyer
It’s been years since I last read/subscribed
to FML.
I knew they referenced a select number of
typical sources to base their asking price lists, but has it
been updated to include sites like BaT and eBay?
ASKING and SELLING are two completely
different things. A person can ask all they want, it only takes
one (or more) willing to buy it at that price, if they think
it’s worth it.
At least with BaT, you can call up a
particular model and see the range in prices. I shake my head
when I see certain cars that fetch phenomenal amounts and others
that I feel should get a lot, don’t.
Peter
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
I went to the Italian Car show in Atlanta
this Saturday
And there were free copies of the Yellow Sh$t
rag Ferrari Market Newsletter
I opened one up and read it
488 PISTA SPYDER going for are you ready
$695k
There’s is fiberglass 308 you can get for
only $315k
The 550 crowd has finally gotten realistic
with there ASKING PRICE and
Clyde PRICING has hit the 575 market so now
is the time guys
On another note the FML is truly
dead!
bring a trailer has reset the pricing on
Ferrari’s with realistic numbers not
ASKING PRICES that don’t reflect the market
whatsoever
If you believe those numbers
You also believe the Jets can win the Super
Bowl !
There’s some guy in Nebraska that’s owns a
superamerica and he wants $485k
He has a spare top with the car
too!
I feel for the 355 crowd, especially the ones
who paid 6 figures for the spyders
Those cars are like BMW 7 series in pricing
!
There was a ROMA at the show, it was being
held at Ferrari of Atlanta and they were giving demo rides in
the car.
The front spoiler on that car is very low,
almost as low as the one on my 512 TR
But my spoiler can be removed and
fixed
Not this one, and get this the sensor for the
distance measurement while driving is exposed on the right
front, it’s the size of a small box about the size of your cell
phone.
Nothing covering it! It’s out there to be hit
by anything in the road, unbelievable
Denise has a 450SL with that same magic
system and MB puts it behind very hard fiberglass and you can’t
even see it from the outside.
WTF was Ferrari thinking.
It has to be an after thought, like holly
shit, MB has this system let’s put in our latest car,
F@ck where do we mount the sensor?
Just put it there Luigi, no one will say a
thing, were Ferrari, remember !
Brian I know your read the post.
Pull up the the replacement cost on the front
spoiler and electrical box when you get a chance and post
it
See if you can post a picture of the front of
the car as well
Overall it was a good show, the weather
cooperated
![]()
RF4-4EVR
Scars are Tattoos with better stories
!
If you have no enemies, you have no character
!
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