Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Classiche certification. (Jeff Kennedy)

[George (ygpz4re]

Jeff - thanks very much for that clarification.  From my Dad's correspondence with the Swiss restorer, we understood that engine 0313 was in another car, and a swap had been planned, but never occurred - hence engine 0331 still being in car 0313.  Guess that plan changed.....

But it reminds me of another philosophical question, still related to Classiche, where my Dad disagreed with the restorer - what is "original"?  The body (by Vignale) had originally been painted in the colors it now wears.  However, when first sold by Ferrari, it had been repainted red w/ black roof.  Presumably, Chinetti needed a car for the 54 NY show, and this car - a "Europa" ("EU" in the chassis number), never really intended for the American market? - was quickly repainted red and sent over (somewhere I think I have photos from Dad where some red overspray is visible under a fender well - would have to find them again....).  So again, what's "original"?  The color that the subcontractor painted the body, or the color that was on the car when first sold by Ferrari?  My Dad argues that the Vignale colors are merely primer for the Ferrari-original colors of red/black.

FWIW, YMMV, yadda yadda.....

gp

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From: Jeff Kennedy <jkennedy.design [at] gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 10:28 AM
To: George <ygpz4re [at] hotmail.com>; The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Classiche certification. (Jeff Kennedy)

 

0313 EU - It has a Classiche replacement motor.  According to Marcel it is stamped with a Classiche symbol, not 0313.  99 points at Pebble Beach; 1 point deduction for the replacement motor.

Classiche has flaws and with some race cars there can easily be issues.  From years back I had a conversation with Gerald Roush about originality and how to apply it to a privateer car raced in period.  It goes that a factory car got upgrades during the race season.  Those would be completely OK because they were performed by the factory.  But what about the privateer that, to stay competitive, installs those same upgrades?  Is that car somehow less correct because its installation were not done by the factory mechanics?

At a point relatively early on in Classiche's operation they did create alternatives to the Red Book.  This allows the certification of the Breadvan.  I do not believe any of us would want to see that converted back to its original SWB configuration.  It still view it as a travesty that the Peter Collins 250 Spider was converted back to drum brakes from it historically significant Dunlop disc brakes for the sake of "originality".

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 7:04 AM George <ygpz4re [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm not a big fan of Classiche, though I do understand the overarching philosophy which led to its creation.

But here's a few of my own thoughts and observations.

A decade or so back, I was chatting with the owner of a vintage Ferrari race car.  From his words and attitudes, he was also clearly not a fan - AT ALL. (nudge nudge wink wink)  They had installed an improved oil tank for the engine's dry-sump system which was outwardly identical to the original, but internally vastly improved in (iirc) baffling, pickup and return, etc.  But despite the outward appearances, Classiche refused certification.  So, as Jeff mentioned below, the original was reinstalled, cert received, and then the improved version put back in the car.  This was, I believe, prior to annual re-certs.  I wonder now where that car is and if that "new and improved" tank is still in the car.

And with my own experiences racing with FoW...  The 360GTs we raced on '02 and '03 were changed over time, as all race cars are.  At one point, the '02 championship car wore a Classiche sticker on its side.  I can't help but wonder which​ configuration received the Classiche cert (assuming it was certified at all)??

Finally, the car my Dad owned back in the 50's - 250 Europa s/n 0313EU.  In the ~2010-2013 time frame, it was beautifully restored in Switzerland and received the Classiche red book.  But!  Not with the original (stamped "0313") engine - with engine 0331.  So I'm guessing that all that is needed is engine of the same type, vice the exact engine it came with from the factory when new.  But that still seems like a bit of a conflict in my mind.

Why would 0313 be certified with the non-original engine, but the race car could not be certified with a non-original oil tank, even if outwardly identical?  I guess this is partly why the whole program became so controversial.

But, as Erik stated elsewhere, what do I know????

gp

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From: Jeff Kennedy <jkennedy.design [at] gmail.com>
To: "Clarence Romero Jr." <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Classiche certification.

Going back to the original question about Classiche Certification:

In the beginning of the Classiche program there were some highly qualified
outside experts involved.  These included Jess Pourret and Keith Bluemel.
They had full access to the historic records at the factory.  As time went
on the certification became an in-house proposition.

Now, one should go back enough in the Ferrari world to remember times of
questionable representations of the cars.  Histories being ascribed to
incorrect cars, restamped engines, components represented as correct that
were not.  Without getting into any names, let's just say that there were
knowledgeable people that found it in their financial interest to make
and/or perpetuate some of these falsehoods.  Plus, one should be aware of
the shenanigans that the factory itself played with renumbering chassis
numbers and such, especially in the 1950s.

So, there can be a legitimate proposition that there should be a way for
correctness to be verified using actual factory records.  Yes, there have
been some questionable certifications they did.  One can also see some
legitimacy to the re-inspection (maybe not annual) to avoid having parts
swapped to get a red book that are removed as soon as the book is in their
possession.  Especially if the car is then for sale representing itself in
a state that it no longer is in.

Has Classiche Certification (as opposed to the Classiche Restoration by the
factory) turned into a profit center?  Yes.

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