Ferrari Mailing List: Re: OFF TOPIC !!! - RE: Official Rifle Cartridge oftheFerrari List

[Dave Handa (dave]

The Glock is not "perfection" as they would like to believe.  They break
like any other gun.

But if you purchase them in the original caliber they were designed in, 9mm
and stay with the G19 or G17, it is about as close to perfection as you can
get.  

The 40 cal Glocks have always been somewhat problematic.  Glock took the 9mm
framed gun, and put a 40 cal barrel and slide on it.  You cannot overcome
the slide velocity with a heavier recoil spring alone, you need some mass
too.  So the guns will wear out faster than the 9mm guns, and have much
higher incidence of parts breakage.  Usually locking blocks, and trigger
bars.  But also the trigger pins. They just take a beating.  If you use
jacketed factory ammo, the unsupported barrel, is a non issue.  The KB's are
almost universally from lead bullet handloads.



-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:39 AM
To: Dave Handa
Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] OFF TOPIC !!! - RE: Official Rifle Cartridge
oftheFerrari List

It was the cartridge cases that exploded and damaged the polymer frames 
(and the hands that held them).  This was exacerbated by Glock's 
purposeful use of a partially unsupported chamber and the use of 
unjacketed ammo without frequent cleaning.  There's no arguing with 
Glock's ability to work in even the harshest conditions.  BTW, recently 
there had been reports of fatigue failure of the area surrounding the 
firing pin.

Dave Handa wrote:

>The KB (for kaboom, where the gun blows up) issue is related only to the 40
>cal guns, during early production, and running lead ammo,( against Glock's
>recommendation).  Lead ammo was leaving behind a lead coating in the bore.
>The polygonal rifling may have contributed to it.the lead coating acted as
a
>bore obstruction, causing the barrels to split and the slide come off the
>guns.  I have not heard of this problem in years.
>
> 
>
>Use jacketed ammo only, which everyone should anyway.
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:10 AM
>To: Dave Handa
>Cc: 'The FerrariList'
>Subject: Re: [Ferrari] OFF TOPIC !!! - RE: Official Rifle Cartridge
>oftheFerrari List
>
> 
>
>Yeah.  My Keltec cracked thru the frame as did a lot of others.  OTOH I've
>had very good experience with the P7.  It will punch out the black at 50
>feet and, after several thousand rounds has never malfunctioned.  Glocks
>have a certain KB issue that I find off-putting.  HK's got my vote.
>
>
>Dave Handa wrote:
>
>
>
>The Keltecs are a popular carry gun.  They do work, but not very durable,
>and under heavy use, will break. Good repair policy, the manufacturer will
>turn them around quickly.  I prefer something more durable like the Glock
>19.  Damn near indestructible.
> 
>Surprisingly, the HKP7M8 can also have issues with parts breakage under
>heavy use.  There is a reason they have become more of a curio, rather than
>a serious fighting weapon.  Neat gun, typical German "over engineered"
>design...what with the gas system and all.  BTW, the ad copy HK claims
about
>the gun capable of extracting even without the extractor present?  Pure BS,
>I saw one launch the extractor somewhere in a gun class and the gun
>immediately had a failure to extract...and continued to have problems with
>extraction and had to be retired.  We loaned him a Glock, which ran the
rest
>of the weekend without problem.
> 
>Dave
> 
> 
> 
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:41 AM
>To: Dave Handa
>Cc: 'The FerrariList'
>Subject: Re: [Ferrari] OFF TOPIC !!! - RE: Official Rifle Cartridge
>oftheFerrari List
> 
>Okay, since this thread has morphed to carry guns.  My two favs are:
>Keltec P11 - crappy plastic with a lousy trigger, but it's pocketable 
>and it packs 11 rnds of 9mm.
>HK P7M8 - high quality tack driver that carries safely in condition one 
>and goes from de-cocked to SA and back with a squeeze or release of its 
>grip mounted cocking lever
> 
>Dave Handa wrote:
> 
>  
>
>Quote "I still carry either my Detonics  
>9mm or my SigSauer M239 in .40S&W on my person and having carried a pistol,
> 
>more specifically a variant of the Sig for about the last 10 years before  
>retiring, and ever since that will be unlikely to change for personal
>preference  
>reasons. I am, experimenting with a Taurus "Judge" model revolver with a  
>cylinder that is chambered for both the .45 Colt and the .410 2.5in.
>    
>
>shotgun
>  
>
>cartridges. This is my first Taurus firearm that I have ever owned given
>their  
>reputation in the past of lesser quality firearms but my examination of
>    
>
>this
>  
>
>firearm (which is backed by a lifetime warranty) has caused me to conclude
>that  
>it appears to be a fine quality firearm, every bit equal to current S&W or
>    
>
> 
>  
>
>Colt production. The idea of carrying a revolver (or placing it at one's  
>bedside) that chambers a #3 buckshot shotgun cartridge in sequences (the
>ideal  one 
>is still in the testing stage) with the .45 Long Colt makes it a fine short
> 
>range, self-defense encounter profile firearm. I should also note that a 
>number  of the "gurus" of the firearms magazine ilk concur with this
>conclusion.
> 
>Dr. Steve"
> 
> 
>Keep carrying the Detonics or Sig. Doctor, I'm not sure how you are
>prioritizing the attributes of your carry handgun, but consider these:
> 
>1)  weight  the Judge is probably twice the weight of your current carry
>guns.
> 
>2)  Size, ditto...probably twice as thick, which makes it more difficult to
>conceal
> 
>3)  Accuracy...every article I have seen has shown rather mediocre accuracy
>with the Judge, a problem since it must be able to chamber both 410 shotgun
>shells and 45 lc requires a compromise in chamber dimensions.  It probably
>has plenty of practical accuracy out to 25 yards with 45LC.  But your
>Detonics or Sig will shoot to 100 yards on man size targets no problem.  
> 
>Also, what about this shotgun shell thing?  What if you need to shoot at
>longer distances?  The spread with buckshot will be terrible beyond 15 feet
>or so....what about bystanders?  And how do you load it up?  All buckshot,
>or all 45?  Or alternate?  What if you need a long shot, but the next round
>it buckshot?
> 
>You seem focused on a "short distance" fight, it would be great if we could
>choose the fight we are going to be in, but I think one needs to allow for
>more variables.
> 
>4) Reloading.  Granted, fights are rarely won based on a fast reload, but I
>would prefer a semi-auto that can be quickly reloaded.  I don't believe
>    
>
>that
>  
>
>there are speed loaders for the Judge, which would mean carrying loose
>rounds in your pocket, or using dump pouches.  Loose rounds is VERY slow
>    
>
>way
>  
>
>to reload a revolver.  Anyone can train up in short order to perform a
>    
>
>speed
>  
>
>load in 3 seconds pretty easily.
> 
>5)  Capacity.  Only 5 rounds with the Judge.  What if you have multiple
>attackers? Fights are rarely one on one, as most attackers want the
>superiority of force, so there will likely be more than one.  Your Detonics
>and Sig have the advantage of greater capacity and faster reloading.
> 
>6)  Caliber/Power.  That can be debated forever.  But hundreds of thousands
>of people have been shot and killed with 9mm fmj (ball) ammo, and I doubt
>any of them complained.  BTW, the quickest way to "make a bigger hole" in
>your adversary, is to make another one.  In other words, shoot some more.
> 
>The bottom line on the Judge is it is the "wiz bang" new "gun of the
>moment".  It really does nothing new, and solves no real problem.  The
>reason it is getting a lot of press from the "gun gurus" is gun writers are
>underpaid and love the free trips to Brazil, free guns, free ammo and other
>stuff provided by the manufacturer Taurus, for a favorable article.  How do
>I know this?  Because I know a gun writer who wrote something less than
>stellar about a major handgun manufacturer, and they literally had him
>shutdown in the industry.  No more loaners were sent out by them, or others
>as word got out. Free ammo dried up as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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