Ferrari Mailing List: Re: GT-R vs. F355

[LS (lashdeep]

Put down the 1987 Road and Track!

Liters of displacement is not a precious resource and therefore, bhp/liter is 
not a valid measure of efficiency for non-racing applications.

Mass and fuel are valuable resources and they are the ones that should be 
conserved! The LS is more efficient than the Nissan motor. It makes more power 
from less mass, less moving parts and while using less fuel. It manages to 
squeeze 7 full liters of displacement from engine even smaller and more fuel 
efficient than the Nissan's. 

"In stock trim, the Nissan GT-R motor produces 480hp from 3.8 liters.   That's
126.3 hp/liter. " 

How much does this engine weigh and how much mpg?? This engine (and this quote) 
is incredibly disappointing actually...

***Believe me, I know this is science fiction to anyone the reads a lot of 
magazines. For years we have been brainwashed into thinking that by saving 
liters of displacement, some big engineering feat has been accomplished. It 
doesn't do anything at all on the street...it's a political racing regulation 
to maintain competitiveness. You need to save gas and save space!! From an 
tuner/car builder/engineer point of view this all makes sense.***

But, enough speculation and opinion....let's advance to real world, firsthand, 
measured results?

I drove a 480rwhp (570bhp?) LS V8 to Montreal with a V10 M5 following. Over a 
90 mile segment, we averaged about  85mph. I recorded 22.5 mpg...the M5 
recorded about 9mpg.

No magazine figures, real results...

This LS dynos (on a dyno sheet) 480rwhp, it is a chip tune away from another 
50...so that's 620bhp or so on pump gas with 22.5mpg.

I'm not going to address the costs as it appears you're just comparing some of 
these articles and not any actual cars that have been built. Chevy parts are 
cheap...real cheap.

No turbos, no blowers...the motor (officially) weighs 80 lbs less than the M5 
V10 and is much, much smaller.....MUCH smaller. 

Those are two significant, firsthand, measured, real world figures...looking 
fwd to your measured data as well.

LS





----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 2:31:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Very interesting, Mr Singh.  But my original statements are still true; you
haven't pointed out anything to refute them (and indeed, only added support
for what I wrote).



I wrote:  "With naturally aspirated motors, your only two real options are
more displacement (see Viper), or more revs (see 430)"

You replied:  "This is magazine propaganda from 1987."

=========

Really?  Let's see.

Chevy wanted more power from its V8.  So what did it do?  In the modern era,
they first tried adding REVS - the LT1 V-8 with 300 hp already displaced 5.7
liters, which was much bigger than any Porsche or Ferrari or BMW of the
time, so they went to the the 4-valve, DOHC Lotus-designed LT5 that rev'ed
to 7200 rpm and made 375 hp.  

Another decade of evolution did add more power, but still not enough to keep
up with Porsche and Ferrari - so, the next step?  Chevy ADDED DISPLACEMENT.
Went to 6.0L for the the standard Vette (and bumped up the redline too,
while they were at it).  Still not enough?  Make it EVEN BIGGER, at 6.2
liters.  Enough?  Nope.  They had to go to SEVEN liters for the C6 Z06.   Oh,
and they also bumped up the redline to 7k!

So, what's "propaganda", Mr. Singh?  That Chevy when decided it needed to
get more power from its V8 architecture, it INCREASED DISPLACEMENT and
ADDEDED REVs?

=========

Now, don't get me wrong - I think the LS3/LS7 are fabulous motors.  But with
"only" 505 hp from seven liters of big displacement, that's only 72.1
hp/liter.

>From your link, a tuner is offering a more powerful version of that motor.
At an estimated 600 hp, from a naturally aspirated SEVEN LITER V8.   That's
still only 85.7 hp/liter.

In stock trim, the Nissan GT-R motor produces 480hp from 3.8 liters.   That's
126.3 hp/liter.  

When tuners want to make BIG power, they add forced induction.  See, e.g.,
Hennessey Vipers, Mallett supercharged Vettes, and many, many more.   Even
Ford gave up and added a supercharger to its V8 for the GT and GT500.

Tuners are salivating to get their hands on the new Nissan motor.  As I
noted before, it's easy enough to modify turbos and plumbing and software to
get hefty hp increases from forced induction engines (see, STi, Evo, 911
turbo, Noble, AMG, etc.)  You can spend $10k on your 996 turbo and drive
away with 650 hp.  So it's easy enough to imagine that a GT-R variant will
have 650-700hp for $10k.  

Lash, your example costs $7k for the parts - still need to take your car
APART and rebuild it.  Total out the door price?  Kinda doubt you could do
it for $10k.  But even if you could, you're still 50-100 hp down!

==========

You also wrote:

>Remember, these 600bhp engines routinely get 2x fuel economy and are
lighter/smaller as well.

2x fuel economy?  Really, Lashdeep?  The Z06 is quoted at 16/26 mpg.   The
new Nissan GT-R gets 19.3 mpg in the Japanese combined cycle.  Dunno what
the official American EPA MPG will be, but am pretty sure that it won't be 8
mpg city / 13 mpg highway.  :-P


Again, I think the 355 is stunningly beautiful, much more so than the 360
(though the 430 is close).  And it is way, way fun to drive.  But it'll get
smoked in this crowd.  And even the 355CH, with which I can pass C5 Z06s at
the track, will get its ass handed to it by the current Z06 and 997tt, and
no doubt with the GT-R too.

Time passes.  It'll be interesting to see if the GT-R, with about 300-400
more pounds than a 430 and the same power, will be able to overcome that
with the advantages of its AWD (on the track).

vty,

--Dennis




-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:34 PM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

I was very, very reluctant to believe it but it's happening...

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68050



This is magazine propaganda from 1987.

The secret force in pushrod engine building is engine mgmt, combustion
efficiency and then proper tuning. This is what is making the difference in
today's powerplants. Check out Mallett and Katech's site....that link above
is not an extreme build. 

Remember, these 600bhp engines routinely get 2x fuel economy and are
lighter/smaller as well. Forced induction is a solution for a bad basic
engine design not a feature in 2007.

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 11:49:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

The only way to get the Z06 motor to 650-700hp easily (and with some degree
of reliability) is with forced induction.  With naturally aspirated motors,
your only two real options are more displacement (see Viper), or more revs
(see 430).  Can't rev the pushrod motor that much more, and can't make the
motor much bigger without starting clean-sheet.  So forced induction - e.g.,
the new Z07/ZR-1/Blue Devil.  But you can't add a tested, reliable
turbo/supercharger system in that engine bay for $10k, AFAIK.

If you've got more info, would love to see it.

I know that some guys are trying turbo systems for the 360 to get some extra
horse, since that motor is about topped out in naturally aspirated form, 

As you probably know, most tuner cars running around in the real world with
>600hp have forced induction - Supras, 996tt, AMGs, etc.  Easy to do with
some new turbos and plumbing, software mods, and higher octane fuel.

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:41 AM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

10-4, understand the logic as a daily driver.

"And I bet that $10k will get 650-700hp easily, which is NOT possible with
the Z06..."

Are you sure? 

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 11:22:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Nope, deadly serious.

FWIW, the dash was designed by the folks who develop the Gran Turismo games,
and I'm sure that shows.

Don't really care, though.

Faster than a 911 Turbo around the 'Ring, for $68k?  Wow.

Sure, the Z06 is a great car.  But I will never, ever, own a Corvette, and
I'd argue that the GT-R is as good a bang-for-the-buck as the Z06, and
better than the Viper, and way better than the 911tt, and way way way better
than the 430 or Gallardo (again, on a bang-for-the-buck basis).  And it
should cream the new M3, the RS4, the IS-F, the AMG C, and pretty much
anything else.

Yeah, I'm hating the extra weight, but AWD is tough to beat at the track.
And I bet that $10k will get 650-700hp easily, which is NOT possible with
the Z06 (think $120k for the Blue Devil/Z07).

The 355s are still more beautiful, evocative, and perhaps more fun to drive,
but I can commute to work in the GT-R in January in New England....

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:15 AM
To: Dennis Liu
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

I'm sure Liu was joking about having a GT-R on order. 

The preview articles in the recent magazines were like a mix of the owner's
manual of my plasma TV and the radar system on the Battlestar Gallactica.

490bhp out of a externally large and heavy V6 with two turbos is sad in
2007...real sad. Real use of technology would've produced a lightweight
500bhp normally aspirated motor that gets at least 25 mpg. 

Liu, your 355s will lose no respect to 4 wheeled cellphones such as these.

LS



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