Ferrari Mailing List: Re: GT-R vs. F355

(continued)

I was honestly trying to advance this discussion into an amazing, informative 
discussion on modern engine management, engine tuning, chassis dynamics, etc. 
This is an area that I'm getting my hands into and I would've loved some 
veteran, experienced contribution by Rainbolt, Jeff G, or Conforti to learn 
from.

It would've been great to extrapolate the bhp/liter fallacy into an accepted,  
real engineering measure of engine efficiency. We could've taken all of the 
marque names out of it (since they don't matter) and focus on the actual 
principles and design used in each solution.

So, here we go again, in order:

1. Yes, all day, everyday...600bhp or more reliably. I'll say it again...my 
proof is in my garage...a chip tune away from 630bhp on pump gas, no forced 
induction. The engine won Le Mans three times, so it's reliable. And, 
disgustingly...you can build a similar engine out of a junkyard LS1 with some 
worked LS6 heads, a nutty cam and a composite intake...under $10k easily. 
Dennis Liu might even be able to do it in your garage with a few manuals and 
some outsourced machine work. Your neighbor might be doing it now. The beauty 
of this is that you don't need any links. Research engine building...ask people 
who've done it...buy some parts and slap them together. That is the proof!

2. Efficiency...case closed? You can add a supercharger/turbo to anything. But, 
you don't need to on an LS to get 600bhp and 22+ mpg.

Dennis Liu wrote-

"The only way to get the Z06 motor to 650-700hp easily (and with some degree
of reliability) is with forced induction.  With naturally aspirated motors,
your only two real options are more displacement (see Viper), or more revs
(see 430)."

"And I bet that $10k will get 650-700hp easily, which is NOT possible with
the Z06 (think $120k for the Blue Devil/Z07)."

So, both of these statements were not accurate. Are you an LS builder?

BTW- The LS I'm referring to was built to take over 900bhp with a blower...but, 
once again, for 600bhp+, you don't need any forced induction. The mpg loss is 
minimal BTW.

3. Seriously...try google for more info...start at LS1tech.com and then get 
back to us with more info. How about any LS block with ported/flowed LS6 heads, 
the new Wilson F.A.S.T. composite intake, long tubes and the .595 bumpstick 
that Katech uses on their crate LS7..600bhp for less than $10k?

Better yet, mod your stock LS7 with the above parts...for much, much less. 
Google this and add up the prices of exactly what I just typed above. Do you 
want part numbers? Once again, if you want to see this in action, come to DC.

Regarding tuners adding blowers for 600bhp...what would you do as an business 
owner? Would you take an engine apart, do machine work and re-assemble or have 
your interns slap a blower kit on a customer's street car? Who is Mallett??? 
(hehe).

Come on, he does it because his margin is larger! But, this doesn't mean a 
tuner can't make an n/a motor with over 600bhp and beyond!!! Mallett can and 
has many times.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask me how I know this!! 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s31PdLxNqxs&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fWC4PYbtuL0&feature=related

Regarding the supercars you listed...their powertrain engineers should be 
fired. They couldn't figure out how to make that power out of n/a engine 
technology?  Or lighten their vehicles? I'd love to see engine weights and 
sizes...prob not so impressive at that point. Anyone can throw a blower onto a 
motor. Where is the skill or technology there? I think you're missing the point 
again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an engine tech 
standpoint. And...I don't think I can type this point up again.

I want to fill this thread up with fact, data, tangible evidence, real numbers 
and without opinions...in fact, I don't really care for GM products and drive a 
Honda van as a daily.

I did my best to expand this discussion to something worthwhile with all the 
recent questions of the List's value. But, if they all revert to a high school 
debate competition about magazine numbers and without any real world experience 
whatsoever...what's the point? 

This List sucks.

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 5:08:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Lashdeep wrote:

>Don't think I've typed "Corvette" or "Vette" anywhere in the last week or
so.

===========

Well, since you mentioned naturally aspirated, push-rod V8s pushing 500+ hp,
I "assumed" you were talking about the GM motor that's found primarily in
the Corvette, but also in a few Pontiacs, Cadillacs and Holdens.  But since
you started this subthread on the GT-R, the only real competitor in this
category is another sports car - the Vette.  So sorry if I was wrong - is
there another 500+hp naturally aspirated pushrod V8 architecture about which
you were speaking, Lashdeep?

>Anyways, let's cut out the last few replies and agree on the following in
today's world of engines:

Nice attempt to skip over the fact that you totally got blown away on the
whole "displacement" (and revs) discussion.  But that's ok, if you want to
give up on that, fine by me.  Let's do this in order.  Lashdeep listed four
premises:

>1. A normally aspirated pushrod V8 can be built to way over 600bhp reliably
and easily.

-- "way over"?  Ok, so I assume you don't mean 610, or 630, but 650+ hp.
Reliably and easily?  You're talking about, effectively, ordering then
building a whole new motor and replacing your stock motor, or pulling your
stock motor and rebuilding it entirely.  Easy?  Hmmm...  But let's say that
we're ok with calling that "easy" (and assuming that it's reliable).   What's
the cost?  Can you do that to your stock Z06 for $10k?  And get 650-700hp?
Got any links to a tuner that claims that kind of power output for that kind
of money?

>2. It is more efficient (weight, size, mpg) for a non-regulated racing
application and definitely for a street car than a multi cam/forced
induction motor at that power level.

-- Yup, agreed, the packaging of the GM V8 (weight and size) is hugely
impressive.  And your point about how displacement is irrelevant, if the
total package size and fuel economy is otherwise comparable, is an excellent
one.

BUT, you've totally MISSED a hugely obvious point, Lashdeep.  You can take
that hugely impressive V8, and ADD a supercharger to get even more
impressive power, with very little additional weight (and packaging is
efficient enough that it all fits).  Do you lose MPG?  Yup!  Do you gain
100-200-300 hp easily and CHEAPLY?  Yup.

3. It will be cheaper than the Nissan VR to modify to that power level.
(Where did you get the $10k figure?)

-- Again, please show all of us where you can add 150-200 hp to a Z06 for
less than $10k without adding forced induction.  As for where the "$10k"
number came from, I extrapolated - $10k in upgrades easily gets you 150-200
extra hp, and buys you either (a) upgrades to turbocharged vehicles, or (b)
adds a supercharger system to naturally aspirated cars.  If you can get me
an all-in $10k, naturally aspirated 650-700 hp motor in a Z06, let me know,
and I'll buy one today.  (though it should be noted that, of course, you can
add a supercharger to your vette for that money (or maybe even less), as I
pointed out with Mallett, but that would deviate from Lashdeep's preaching
on the beauty of natural aspiration.)

4. Most people have an outdated opinion (no real current firsthand
experience) on pushrod technology at this power level.

Well, I can't say as that I can accurately calculate what "most people" have
in their minds, Lashdeep.  :-P  

I've not expressed any disdain for pushrod tech in this thread.  Again and
again, I've expressed admiration for what Chevy has been able to.   Still, at
the end of the day, when you're talking about world class fast *street* cars
that tuners build, invariably, the fastest all have forced induction.   Take
a look at the supercar tests that magazines run, or the annual Nuburgring
tuner tests, and almost all of the winners (if not ALL) have turbos or
superchargers.  

The fastest versions of sports or GT cars from these manufacturers all have
forced induction:

Bugatti Veyron
Bentley Continental Speed 
Mercedes-Benz CL65
Porsche GT2
Ford GT
Audi RS6 (and about to offer turbos in the R8)
Jaguar XKR
Lotus Exige S
Saleen S7
Hennessey Viper
Alpina B7 (yes, M5 is NA, but BMW has announced it's adding more turbos to
its line)

**even Chevy is adding a supercharger to its "awesome" pushrod V8!

[sorry, gotta run, this is fun but gots ta go!]

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 4:08 PM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Changing a premise?

Don't think I've typed "Corvette" or "Vette" anywhere in the last week or
so.

Read my first reply to your GT-R deposit point and then reply to our engine
vs engine discussion.

Anyways, let's cut out the last few replies and agree on the following in
today's world of engines:

1. A normally aspirated pushrod V8 can be built to way over 600bhp reliably
and easily.
2. It is more efficient (weight, size, mpg) for a non-regulated racing
application and definitely for a street car than a multi cam/forced
induction motor at that power level.
3. It will be cheaper than the Nissan VR to modify to that power level.
(Where did you get the $10k figure?)
4. Most people have an outdated opinion (no real current firsthand
experience) on pushrod technology at this power level.

I can back the above up with real data-dyno sheets, build sheets, weight
specs, etc...no "Japanese ratings", "quoted figures", or "pretty sure"
facts.

Honestly, this is funny, but I'm not concerned with whether you agree or
not. This is pure fact...it will prove itself. I'm just presenting REAL
data...take this thread as datapoints to make your own educated decision.
It's happening everywhere...people are putting Le Mans winning pushrod V8
architecture into their S2000, E36 M3, E30 M3, 240 SX, RX7, 911, 928, Miata,
Mustang, Skyline, 300ZX, etc. 

Why are they doing this??

We'll see an LS powered Nissan GT-R that will be better, faster, stronger,
sexier, smarter than stock.

I don't need to do any further convincing...just remember this thread next
year...print it out!

The Hills Have Eyes:

http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=2724

Scary Comparison of a 911 2.7 vs an LS (post #32) :

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=823297&highlight=ls7&p
age=2

Damn Dirty Apes:

http://www.foxhome.com/planetoftheapes/images/PlanetoftheApes-splash.jpg

LS

PS-I got 23mpg in my Honda minivan this morning.

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 3:27:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Lashdeep - please read my post before you hastily respond.  It's fun to
respond to your challenges, but it'd be helpful if you'd limit your
challenges to things I actually write, and not what you dream that I'd
written.

Re mileage:

I already provided you with the MPG figure for the Nissan GT-R (Japanese
rating only, but still not 1/2 the Corvette).

Yes, we all know the M5 is a fuel hog.  But you brought up the M5, I didn't.
Let's keep this focused on your challenge of the GT-R, and your touting of
the Chevy V8, ok?  

And for the record, for a segment in VT on our convoy's trip up to Montreal,
I averaged 90 mph in the Honda minivan, and still got 23 mpg, so there!   I
can easily get 25 mpg in my wife's 911 averaging 85+ mph.  And the 355 is
not much less than that in cruise mode.  What's the point?  That the Vette
gets good gas mileage?  It does!!  That's awesome!  Is your point that the
GT-R gets terrible gas mileage?  You have no basis for that argument!
Again, the official combined Japanese rating is 19.3 mpg (contra the Z06's
16/26).  It may get slightly worse gas mileage, but there is no way in hell,
as you asserted previously that the Vette gets ***2x*** the mileage.  No
way.

And re displacement:

I stated originally that the two most popular ways of making more power in
the real world from a naturally aspirated motor are (a) adding displacement,
and (b) increasing revs.

You did not like that statement, and you challenged it by posting a link to
a tuner that offers a built V8.

I cited facts that supported my original statement - Chevrolet, in adding
more power to the Vette, ended up... wait for it... it's coming... hold
on... **adding displacement** and **increasing revs**.

When confronted with direct evidence supporting my initial statement, you
have backed off your challenge to that original statement, instead changing
your position into a heated defense of why BIG DISPLACEMENT IS GOOD.  Slick
move, Lash.

But I never said that big displacement is bad!  I said that Big Displacement
is how you get more power without forced induction!  Heck, even Ferrari did
it - see how the 3.0 liter V8 went to 3.2, then 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, and 4.2
liters!  And I said that it's much easier and cost-effective to get even
MORE power from a forced induction motor.  Which NO ONE denies!  Even you
can't deny it!  You can get a 10% hp increase in many turbocharged cars with
just a flash of software - no way can you do that on a NA motor.

And re "efficiency":

My original point was that, duhhhhhh, forced induction will ALWAYS result in
more power per liter of displacement.  If you want equivalent power from
motors of the same displacement, you're pretty much reduced to adding
massive revs (e.g., F1 motors).

Is the Corvette motor a wonder of engineering and efficiency!  Yes,
absolutely!  10000%!  Yup-a-rooni!!!

But you can't get 650-700 hp out of a Vette for $10k!!!  A friend builds
650hp 996tt for $10k (for the engine work; suspension, wheels, brakes, are
more costly, etc.).  There are hundreds of these beasts running around out
there.  And they are dwarfed by the number of massive hp Supras, STis, etc.

Even Corvette tuners, when they want 650-700, or MORE, reliable hp, turn to
forced induction.

As for weight - well, the weight of the V8 may be impressive, but what's
more impressive is that the Z06 is only about 3200 lbs.  I *love* that about
the Vette.  Too bad you'd never catch me owning one.  And I hate the fact
that the 911 Turbo is about 3600 lbs, and the GT-R is about 3800lbs.  But
you can't avoid the extra weight of the AWD system.  I'm sure Nissan can
build a 3200 lb GTR, but it'd probably be closer to $120k.  Corvette is to
be commended for building a 505hp, 3200lb sports car for $79k!  It's a huge
bargain!

But $70k for a GT-R that will outrun it in stock form, and $10k more for
650-700hp to SMOKE it?  The only thing that may come close... oh, I don't
know.  A tuned 996tt for $50k+$30k?  Hard to beat AWD when you're trying to
put 650-700 hp to the ground.

Oh, and Lash, when you respond to this, it'd be helpful if you don't change
the premise again.

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 2:59 PM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Put down the 1987 Road and Track!

Liters of displacement is not a precious resource and therefore, bhp/liter
is not a valid measure of efficiency for non-racing applications.

Mass and fuel are valuable resources and they are the ones that should be
conserved! The LS is more efficient than the Nissan motor. It makes more
power from less mass, less moving parts and while using less fuel. It
manages to squeeze 7 full liters of displacement from engine even smaller
and more fuel efficient than the Nissan's. 

"In stock trim, the Nissan GT-R motor produces 480hp from 3.8 liters.
That's
126.3 hp/liter. " 

How much does this engine weigh and how much mpg?? This engine (and this
quote) is incredibly disappointing actually...

***Believe me, I know this is science fiction to anyone the reads a lot of
magazines. For years we have been brainwashed into thinking that by saving
liters of displacement, some big engineering feat has been accomplished. It
doesn't do anything at all on the street...it's a political racing
regulation to maintain competitiveness. You need to save gas and save
space!! From an tuner/car builder/engineer point of view this all makes
sense.***

But, enough speculation and opinion....let's advance to real world,
firsthand, measured results?

I drove a 480rwhp (570bhp?) LS V8 to Montreal with a V10 M5 following. Over
a 90 mile segment, we averaged about  85mph. I recorded 22.5 mpg...the M5
recorded about 9mpg.

No magazine figures, real results...

This LS dynos (on a dyno sheet) 480rwhp, it is a chip tune away from another
50...so that's 620bhp or so on pump gas with 22.5mpg.

I'm not going to address the costs as it appears you're just comparing some
of these articles and not any actual cars that have been built. Chevy parts
are cheap...real cheap.

No turbos, no blowers...the motor (officially) weighs 80 lbs less than the
M5 V10 and is much, much smaller.....MUCH smaller. 

Those are two significant, firsthand, measured, real world figures...looking
fwd to your measured data as well.

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 2:31:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Very interesting, Mr Singh.  But my original statements are still true; you
haven't pointed out anything to refute them (and indeed, only added support
for what I wrote).

I wrote:  "With naturally aspirated motors, your only two real options are
more displacement (see Viper), or more revs (see 430)"

You replied:  "This is magazine propaganda from 1987."

=========

Really?  Let's see.

Chevy wanted more power from its V8.  So what did it do?  In the modern era,
they first tried adding REVS - the LT1 V-8 with 300 hp already displaced 5.7
liters, which was much bigger than any Porsche or Ferrari or BMW of the
time, so they went to the the 4-valve, DOHC Lotus-designed LT5 that rev'ed
to 7200 rpm and made 375 hp.  

Another decade of evolution did add more power, but still not enough to keep
up with Porsche and Ferrari - so, the next step?  Chevy ADDED DISPLACEMENT.
Went to 6.0L for the the standard Vette (and bumped up the redline too,
while they were at it).  Still not enough?  Make it EVEN BIGGER, at 6.2
liters.  Enough?  Nope.  They had to go to SEVEN liters for the C6 Z06.
Oh,
and they also bumped up the redline to 7k!

So, what's "propaganda", Mr. Singh?  That Chevy when decided it needed to
get more power from its V8 architecture, it INCREASED DISPLACEMENT and
ADDEDED REVs?

=========

Now, don't get me wrong - I think the LS3/LS7 are fabulous motors.  But with
"only" 505 hp from seven liters of big displacement, that's only 72.1
hp/liter.

>From your link, a tuner is offering a more powerful version of that motor.
At an estimated 600 hp, from a naturally aspirated SEVEN LITER V8.   That's
still only 85.7 hp/liter.

In stock trim, the Nissan GT-R motor produces 480hp from 3.8 liters.
That's
126.3 hp/liter.  

When tuners want to make BIG power, they add forced induction.  See, e.g.,
Hennessey Vipers, Mallett supercharged Vettes, and many, many more.   Even
Ford gave up and added a supercharger to its V8 for the GT and GT500.

Tuners are salivating to get their hands on the new Nissan motor.  As I
noted before, it's easy enough to modify turbos and plumbing and software to
get hefty hp increases from forced induction engines (see, STi, Evo, 911
turbo, Noble, AMG, etc.)  You can spend $10k on your 996 turbo and drive
away with 650 hp.  So it's easy enough to imagine that a GT-R variant will
have 650-700hp for $10k.  

Lash, your example costs $7k for the parts - still need to take your car
APART and rebuild it.  Total out the door price?  Kinda doubt you could do
it for $10k.  But even if you could, you're still 50-100 hp down!

==========

You also wrote:

>Remember, these 600bhp engines routinely get 2x fuel economy and are
lighter/smaller as well.

2x fuel economy?  Really, Lashdeep?  The Z06 is quoted at 16/26 mpg.   The
new Nissan GT-R gets 19.3 mpg in the Japanese combined cycle.  Dunno what
the official American EPA MPG will be, but am pretty sure that it won't be 8
mpg city / 13 mpg highway.  :-P

Again, I think the 355 is stunningly beautiful, much more so than the 360
(though the 430 is close).  And it is way, way fun to drive.  But it'll get
smoked in this crowd.  And even the 355CH, with which I can pass C5 Z06s at
the track, will get its ass handed to it by the current Z06 and 997tt, and
no doubt with the GT-R too.

Time passes.  It'll be interesting to see if the GT-R, with about 300-400
more pounds than a 430 and the same power, will be able to overcome that
with the advantages of its AWD (on the track).

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:34 PM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

I was very, very reluctant to believe it but it's happening...

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68050

This is magazine propaganda from 1987.

The secret force in pushrod engine building is engine mgmt, combustion
efficiency and then proper tuning. This is what is making the difference in
today's powerplants. Check out Mallett and Katech's site....that link above
is not an extreme build. 

Remember, these 600bhp engines routinely get 2x fuel economy and are
lighter/smaller as well. Forced induction is a solution for a bad basic
engine design not a feature in 2007.

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 11:49:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

The only way to get the Z06 motor to 650-700hp easily (and with some degree
of reliability) is with forced induction.  With naturally aspirated motors,
your only two real options are more displacement (see Viper), or more revs
(see 430).  Can't rev the pushrod motor that much more, and can't make the
motor much bigger without starting clean-sheet.  So forced induction - e.g.,
the new Z07/ZR-1/Blue Devil.  But you can't add a tested, reliable
turbo/supercharger system in that engine bay for $10k, AFAIK.

If you've got more info, would love to see it.

I know that some guys are trying turbo systems for the 360 to get some extra
horse, since that motor is about topped out in naturally aspirated form, 

As you probably know, most tuner cars running around in the real world with
>600hp have forced induction - Supras, 996tt, AMGs, etc.  Easy to do with
some new turbos and plumbing, software mods, and higher octane fuel.

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:41 AM
To: BigHeadDennis [at] gmail.com
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

10-4, understand the logic as a daily driver.

"And I bet that $10k will get 650-700hp easily, which is NOT possible with
the Z06..."

Are you sure? 

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 11:22:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

Nope, deadly serious.

FWIW, the dash was designed by the folks who develop the Gran Turismo games,
and I'm sure that shows.

Don't really care, though.

Faster than a 911 Turbo around the 'Ring, for $68k?  Wow.

Sure, the Z06 is a great car.  But I will never, ever, own a Corvette, and
I'd argue that the GT-R is as good a bang-for-the-buck as the Z06, and
better than the Viper, and way better than the 911tt, and way way way better
than the 430 or Gallardo (again, on a bang-for-the-buck basis).  And it
should cream the new M3, the RS4, the IS-F, the AMG C, and pretty much
anything else.

Yeah, I'm hating the extra weight, but AWD is tough to beat at the track.
And I bet that $10k will get 650-700hp easily, which is NOT possible with
the Z06 (think $120k for the Blue Devil/Z07).

The 355s are still more beautiful, evocative, and perhaps more fun to drive,
but I can commute to work in the GT-R in January in New England....

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:15 AM
To: Dennis Liu
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: [Ferrari] GT-R vs. F355

I'm sure Liu was joking about having a GT-R on order. 

The preview articles in the recent magazines were like a mix of the owner's
manual of my plasma TV and the radar system on the Battlestar Gallactica.

490bhp out of a externally large and heavy V6 with two turbos is sad in
2007...real sad. Real use of technology would've produced a lightweight
500bhp normally aspirated motor that gets at least 25 mpg. 

Liu, your 355s will lose no respect to 4 wheeled cellphones such as these.

LS

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Re: GT-R vs. F355	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: LS (lashdeepyahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 15:54:42 -0800 (PST)