Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH and Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

[LS (lashdeep]

DL-"I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep."

LS-"I think you're missing the
point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
engine tech standpoint."

To keep things technical, let's examine the Ford GT's 5.4 liter supercharged 
V8, one of the forced induction supercars on Dennis' list.

 It's extremely strong and makes about 550bhp. It has DOHC, 32 valves, 4 
camshafts overhead and a supercharger. This basic engine is also used in the 
Koenigsegg (all models despite their shady "bespoke" claim). It's fuel economy 
is not so great either.

Comparing that engine with a typical pushrod V8 makes for an interesting 
demonstration (see post #37) :

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21944&highlight=teksid

This image shows the Ford Modular motor, in this case a 4.6 liter sitting next 
to a pushrod V8, in this case a Ford 302. The Ford GT uses basically the engine 
on the left, PLUS a supercharger.

The LS V8 is VERY similar in dimensions to the 5.0 V8. In fact, I can produce 
exact dimensions of the 302 as I have a spare at home I can measure. If anyone 
wants the exact numbers of either that or the LS V8 (showing that they are 
similar), please call me after 8pm tonight and I can measure both for you. 
202-236-4589.

Regardless, the above picture is frightening...for just one moment, put 
yourself in a car/engine builder's shoes. Assuming that both the pushrod and 
the blown OHC engine make the same power (which they can) and both rev 
comfortably to 8000rpm (which they both can)...which would you want in your 
performance oriented car? 

An OHC engine with 4 cams, 32 valves and a supercharger making up a bulk of the 
weight high in the engine, just underneath the hood? 

Or would you prefer the dramatically smaller and lighter, normally aspirated 
pushrod design? As a cherry on top (or on bottom for better weight 
distribution), the pushrod gets much better fuel economy as well thanks to 
impressive engine mgmt...

>From an engineering standpoint, it's a tough point to ignore no? 

The SL65 comparison would be very simliar to the one above...two turbos add a 
lot of weight, heat, oil and coolant...what a mess. The M5 V10 is soooo huge 
it's scary. If you get the chance to see one outside of a car, you will soil 
your knickers. That thing has no business being in a performance car or parked 
outside a Sierra Club meeting for that matter. 

Is this science fiction? 

It might seem that way...I didn't want to believe it. Hell, one of my "babies" 
has the Ford Mod motor pictured above. But now, in Dec 2007, it seems like 
silly complication at best...especially if you like track performance or 
balanced handling...and saving fuel.

In hopes of sparking the elusive technical discussion (without any car religion 
or personal preferences involved), what would be the next step in ultimate 
performance engine design?

Ferrari has an amazing reputation for translating racing tech into street tech. 
They were testing an early form of paddle shifters in '78 with Gilles. That 
feature evolved and eventually changed street motoring. 

What is next? I'd like to see a pneumatic valvetrain discussion with pros and 
cons. Will the elimination of the valve spring and its weight high atop the 
engine more than counter act the additional weight of the pressure tank and 
hard air lines? Is this something we could see in a future V8 Ferrarimodel? 

Someone, please chime in...this could be fun!

LS



----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Liu <bigheaddennis [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 10:25:02 PM
Subject: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up

I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep.  I think it
pretty much shows his POV.  Ask yourself if you really think this is
correct.

>Regarding the supercars you listed...their powertrain engineers should be
fired. They couldn't figure out how to make that power out of n/a engine
technology?  Or lighten their vehicles? I'd love to see engine weights and
sizes...prob not so impressive at that point. Anyone can throw a blower onto
a motor. Where is the skill or technology there? I think you're missing the
point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
engine tech standpoint. And...I don't think I can type this point up again.

==============

So...  all of the powertrain engineers at Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Bentley,
Bugatti, Audi, Jaguar, Ford, Audi, Lotus and even Chevrolet are idiots, and
the guys building and selling custom V8s in their garages are geniuses?   

Wow.

Well, that's it for me.  I'm outta here....

vty,

--Dennis

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