Ferrari Mailing List: Re: NFC: Clyde, Look who wants to take your Gun away

I seem to recall reading that passenger liners use a system of "designed 

leaks" to adjust the pressure in the cabin.  The article said there were 

several areas of roughly 1 sq ft that could be increased or decreased as the 

engineer wished.

A James Bond movie started that bullet causing a "catatrophic 

depressurization" back in the 60s.  Goldfinger IIRC.

Another myth the TV guys debunked was bulletfire causing a car to explode - 

as in the airplane test Rick described, they fired all kinds of guns at a 

parked car with partially filled fuel tank.  They shot it to pieces with no 

fireworks.

The Movies and TV have introduced all kinds of special effects that have no 

basis in fact.

The mythbusters is a very entertaining program IMO -

re the Airline Pilot carry program - the TSA has been dragging their feet 

for a long time on this efffort - some of the reqmnts are just plain silly - 

like requiring extensive psycological testing before allowing a pilot to be 

trained on weapons - like they're not physoclogically capable to fire a gun 

but they can command a huge airplane with 400 people on board?

Mike F wrote <<respect a pilot's judgment for flying a plane but to think 

they would

potentially get into an OK Coral shootout >>   you think it would be 

preferable to have the terrorists cut the pilots throat and then fly the 

plane into a skyscraper?  That would make a great summer blockbuster.  One 

more thing to consider, if the pilot is mature enough to command that 

aircraft, they will have the maturity not so start blasting away at 

anything that moves.  You also wanted  <<low caliber and for them to not 

be able to ever miss, which is not a realistic >>  - actually they use the 

next best thing.  The bullets used are called "Frangible" which means the 

bullets is fragile and will splatter when they hit most anything - so you 

don't have to worry about the pilots bullets coming they bulkheads and 

killing innocents.  If the terrorists is hit they will be killed or 

disabled.

Also - the pilots must pay their own expenses to take the training class - 

using their vacation to take the 1 week class (IIRC).  Even so, a large 

majority of pilots have signed up for the classes.  But the TSA continues to 

try to sway the pilot away from the program, even with a congressional order 

not to interfer with the program.

"We're from the government and we're here to help you!  Now get out of the 

way or well kill you!"

LarryT

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Rick" <Forza355 [at] verizon.net>

To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NFC: Clyde, Look who wants to take your Gun away

Mythbusters did a show on this a while ago. The pressurized a DC 9 scrapped
aircraft in the Arizona desert boneyard  and then fired rounds into the
cabin. All it did was leak like a nail in a tire  even as they increased the
bullet size from 22 cal to 308 Cal. Finally to get the actual cabin to
rupture catastrophicly, it took an explosive device ushing  dynamite ot
platics, i can't remember which. In the end, the  Hollywood  Movie  scene
where the plane rips apart after a bullet peircing the cabin skin, was
officially debunked by their many experiments.

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Mike Fleischer" <themightytoe [at] gmail.com>

To: "Rick" <Forza355 [at] verizon.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NFC: Clyde, Look who wants to take your Gun away

OK

Out of curiosity, and maybe one of our resident commercial pilots can
answer this?

What happens if you fire a weapon in a pressurized aircraft and the bullet
gets through the aircraft's fuselage?  Are you going to have a whistling
pinhole leak where air rushes out of the pressurized can that is the
airplane, or is it like shooting a shaken up can of coke with a BB gun?  I
suspect depending on altitude and how big a hole you make, you either get
no issues or a catastrophic event but I'd not want to risk the latter...
I respect a pilot's judgment for flying a plane but to think they would
potentially get into an OK Coral shootout in the cockpit to fight for
control of an aircraft?  That is really just completely insane.  Certainly
it would make for a crappy summer blockbuster (probably starring Nicolas
Cage) but in reality, you do that, chances of ending up in a crater are
pretty high.

I guess if they carry guns, I would want them to be low caliber and for
them to not be able to ever miss, which is not a realistic expectation...
Maybe a Taser would be a better solution?  Or maybe even better still an
air Marshall with a taser, and some box cutters, nail clippers and a
pocket knife as a backup?  Clearly those should be enough to stop the bad
guys.

Having recently flown, I'd like to see a revision of our TSA protocols
across the board.  Taking your shoes off?  Come on.  These people
inspected my daughter's milk in her sippy cup (she was drinking it in
front of them moments before), in the past wanted to take away kids toys,
make you remove laptops from your bag?  Like the Xray machine can see them
better then?  How about we hire some professionals with some damned common
sense and training, and oh yes people skills?
Some may say "Oh times are really different now" but they really aren't,
terrorists have hated us for a long time and will continue to hate us,
they are really the current "enemy of the year" just like communists were,
and Saddam Hussein was and Kim Jong Il will be, and King Kong, and
Godzilla, and the Angry Monkey...  All shall tremble and fear these
boogeymen and we will send our armies fortth to smash them into little
itty bitty bits...  Wait I forgot, Osama Bin Laden... He's really bad.
Maybe we should catch this guy and lock him up somewhere?  Oh but then
Obama would just let him go after a fair trial and he'd move into my
neighborhood and become a pedophile...  Best to lock him away for ever and
ever.
And its entirely refreshing to hear all the Right wing republicans bitch
about Obama...  It is so much better than hearing all the left wing
democrats menstrate about Bush...
BR,
Mike

Rick wrote:

Obama Wants to Disarm U.S. Pilots
Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:19 PM

By: David A. Patten

The Obama administration is taking steps quietly to shut down the program
that qualifies commercial airline pilots to carry firearms in jetliner
cockpits in order to ward off another 9/11-type attack.
The administration recently diverted $2 million from a program to train
and certify pilots to carry firearms safely while on duty. Instead, it is
using the money to hire additional field inspectors to help discipline
pilots who step out of line, according to a report in Tuesday's
Washington Times.
A Times editorial condemned the Obama administration's action, calling it
"completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots."
Since Obama took office, the approval process for certifying pilots to
carry firearms has ground to a halt, the newspaper reports. Pilots are
afraid to speak out about the behind-the-scenes maneuverings, for fear of
retaliation, according to the newspaper. No cases have been reported in
which pilots have brandished a weapon inappropriately or otherwise abused
their eligibility to carry firearms.
About 12,000 pilots have been authorized to carry handguns while flying
aircraft as part of the Federal Flight Deck Officers Program. Congress
authorized the program in a 310-to-113 vote following the 9/11 attacks to
help prevent terrorists from turning jetliners into flying bombs that
could be used to attack key sites like the White House, the Pentagon, or
Capitol Hill.
Paul Valone, a Second Amendment advocate who directs Grass Roots North
Carolina (GRNC.org), is calling for citizens to contract their
congressional representatives to protest the administration's anti-gun
priorities.
Pilots are already required to pay for their own room and board during
training, and use paid leave for the time they're off the job. Every six
months, the program requires them to be requalified for firearm use.
Valone writes on Examiner.com: "While bureaucrats . . . may have
attempted to hamstring the program with burdensome requirements, training
instructors and the Federal Air Marshals who now oversee the program
routinely thank the FFDOs for their professionalism and dedication in
protecting the nation's air commerce against terrorism."
Valone says the Obama administration is "dismantling yet another layer of
defense against terrorism and defying the will of the American people."
Since coming to power, the Obama administration has undertaken a series
of moves that signal a major de-emphasis of programs enacted to keep
America's homeland safe from terrorist attack:

a.. Obama's choice for U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder, labeled
enhanced interrogation techniques as outright "torture" during his Senate
confirmation hearings.

a.. Obama banned waterboarding and ordered CIA interrogators to abide by
U.S. Army Field Manual regulations.

a.. He selected Clinton-era political operative Leon Panetta to serve as
his CIA director. Panetta's qualifications to run the agency have been
questioned widely.

a.. Obama announced that he would shut down the Guantanamo Bay detention
facility in Cuba within one year, raising the prospect of hardened
terrorists entering the U.S. criminal justice system, or worse, being
released to rejoin al-Qaida.

a.. He indicated the U.S. defense budget would be sharply reduced.

a.. He has sent a letter to Russian leaders, apparently offering to back
off on the ballistic missile defense system that would protect Europe
from Iran and North Korea.
These and other Obama administration moves recently prompted former vice
president Dick Cheney to charge that Obama is returning to the
Clinton-era view of terrorism as a law enforcement issue.
"Now he's made some choices that in my mind raise the risk to the
American people of another attack," Cheney said of Obama on CNN's "State
of the Union" program.
The Washington Times points out that about 70 percent of airline pilots
have military backgrounds. With airport screening less than 100 percent
effective, it states, armed pilots provide a second layer of defense.
"Only anti-gun extremists and terrorist recruits are worried about armed
pilots," the newspaper editorial says.

© 2009 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
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Re: NFC: Clyde, Look who wants to take your Gun away	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: LarryT (l02turnercomcast.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:11:34 -0700 (PDT)