Ferrari Mailing List: Re: This is not a joke. Compare to contemporary cars, how did the 275 GTB Handle.

[Steve Jenkins (steve]

True dat. Which is why I put the 18” OZ Racing LeMans-Spec wheels on my F40 and went with the bigger brakes (same Brembo rotors/calipers as the F50). It’s better, but still not what I want.

 

I’m considering either a master cylinder upgrade with bias adjustment, or this:

 

http://f40brakes.com/

 

SteveJ

 

From: Scott Saidel [mailto:Ferrarisimo [at] comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 7:09 PM
To: Steve Jenkins
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] This is not a joke. Compare to contemporary cars,how did the 275 GTB Handle.

 

FG:

 

I am sure SteveJ will chime in here -- I did my best to suck him in -- but the "original" F40 brakes are pretty bad - even for the era.  

 

Cold they are more of a suggestion than an order and I know of more than one story of a newbie driver (including myself) accidentally cruising right through their first stop sign or red light.  They are pretty good once warm.  but have a tendency towards notchy and unbalanced once hot.  

 

Many owners upgrade to a bigger, easier to balance, and more effective high performance system (even though they have to change out the stock wheels to do it) especially if they track the car.  

 

Drove an almost LM Spec car with a HUGE AP, fully driver adjustable, breaking package on the track at Sebring once.  Still not fun when cold (an acceptable fault on a track car) but freaking amazing on the track.  Yanked the skin off your face coming into the hairpin - something like 160 to 20 from the 75 foot cone.  Wasn't mine and I was not pushing hard - but loved the ride.

 

Have a dream of driving a GTE or LM - or Roland Linder's LM clone - someday.  Then again, I am getting a little old for that kind of crap and my insides seem to smoosh up more than they used to from +1G.  Perhaps, Spec Miata is more my speed???  Either way, waiting for tonight's Powerball drawing and hoping THAT will finance the dream (and a Azzuro California 599 GTO, and a 166MM, and a Dino, and a 250 Lusso, and a 250 SWB, and the Breadvan…)!!

 

Scottie  

 

 

On Oct 29, 2011, at 9:47 PM, Fellippe Galletta wrote:

On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Scott Saidel <Ferrarisimo [at] comcast.net> wrote:

Doug:

 

I have driven a couple of 275s including a lightweight torque tube car with the HO engine, and a "standard steel bodied car, ( as well as many different versions of 250s and a fairly wide variety of other cars from that era) in a variety of settings.   The short answer, is - judging by the standards set by "modern cars" the handling IS poor (at best).  However, most of that analysis / opinion relates more to the marked change in the concept and technology of sports cars during the past 4 decades.  As a result, it can only be said that the handling, comfort and prowess of pre-1970 sports cars is extraordinarily weak compared to even the most prosaic modern sports sedan.  

 

The ride is rough.  The tires are narrow and hard.  Handling is marginal.  Steering is difficult.  Shifting is notchy.  The brakes are underpowered.  The clutch requires undue effort.  It is often loud, hot, and uncomfortable.  Driving position requires the DRIVER to compromise.  There are no amenities.  

 

In summary, the driving experience is so different it is difficult to make any meaningful comparison.  Like comparing driving a Dodge Ram 3500 SuperDuty (which I drove yesterday) and comparing it to a 1980's (what I like to call the "soft" years) Cadillac.   Does it make the Truck's ride and handling bad?  It is a truck, riding rough is part of what it DOES.  Sure, it isn't butter smooth on the highway like the Caddy, but - then again - you wouldn't want to try to tow 20,000 lbs down the highway with the Caddy.

 

So, what is driving a 275 like -- they are beautiful, they are exciting, they sound AMAZING.  Compared to a modern car they are difficult to drive hard and fast -- it takes far more skill to push the limits.  The wheel is big (but smaller than a Jag XK150) the Shifter stalk is LONG but is nicely placed close to the wheel.  Seating position is classic Italian - easier to use the bottom half of the wheel than the top.  Unlike most modern cars, that have tons of understeer built in to protect you, they can be quite unpredictable when you push the limits.  Things can go wrong - fast - and there are no modern computer handling aids to save you.

The brakes, which can be OK (rarely good and never great), can disappear on you in the blink of an eye - and even when they work, they can have a very adverse effect on the cars attitude - especially when things are going wrong.  This can make things go from bad to worse, or much worse - or much, much worse - or much much much worse - quickly.

 

Are they "poor handling cars" - compared to what: a 1960's Ford Fairlane; chrome covered Caddy Elderado; 427 Cobra; or a new Dodge Ram 3500 SuperDuty … well, it is all relative.  Compared to other vintage cars of the same era they are very good if not amazing.  It does, however, take much more of a driver to explore their limits and when things go bad, they can go really bad.  I wouldn't push one hard, or even medium hard unless I was in a VERY safe place (like an otherwise empty racetrack).

 

I would take my old car, a modded out, 250hp, '07 JCW MINI up against a 275 on any track and put up a great fight without breaking a sweat.  I'd also be able to listen to the radio and run the A/C at the same time.  The MINI was short a few horsepower (assuming that the 275 was running perfectly and being pushed hard), but had it all over the Ferrari in breaking and handling, modern tires, less weight, better balance, awesome wheelbase to overall length ratio, etc.  More importantly, I could replace the MINI for under $40K -- to me, that goes a very long way as to how hard I am (personally) willing to push the envelope. 

    

So - poor handling - yes and no.  All depends what you - reasonably - expect.  If you are comparing it to a FXX or 458 Italia, and expect THAT level of performance and handling, you will be disappointed.  If you are comparing it to '58 Eldarado, or 427 Cobra - you will be suitably impressed.

 

Of course, it is just my .02,

 

FWIW, ask SteveJ to compare the brakes on his F40 with a 458.  And, that has only been 15 years of improvement in technology.

 

Scottie

Awesome write up Scottie!!

This is why I still subscribe to the list, and emails like this make up for the annoying stuff. Doug, you're lucky to have gotten this level of response!

As for the 275 or any old car, I'd imagine they would be a blast to drive on a winding country road so long as you didn't have the urge to drive it like you're at the Ring. Just exercising that V12 would be worth the price of admission.

FG

ps - The F40's brakes may be old but the lack of assist and ABS must give it better feel than the 458 I would hope...

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