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Re: Justin Bell Compares the 911 and Corvette...Re: Fun Semi Daily Driver?
From: Doug & Terri (dntdock.net)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 14:04:41 -0800 (PST)

1G – Street car??  Mark Donohue was having a tough time getting more than 1G on the Camaro and American Motors skid pads.  But that was the 60’s.

 

I was at Laguna Seca in the late 70’s watching F1 motorcycles.  Incredible I thot.  Now, any fool with a little stack of $100 bills about this high can walk in and buy a bike that if ridden correctly could clean those 70’s F1 bikes clocks.  Or listening to one of my neighbors who is a doc – he refers to those bikes as “donor cycles.”

 

DOUG

 

 

From: Larry T [mailto:l02turner [at] comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 1:14 PM
To: DOUG
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Justin Bell Compares the 911 and Corvette...Re: Fun Semi Daily Driver?

 

lateral in excess of 1G is pretty impressive for road cars....  as are all the other numbers of course, that one just made my attention level increase - 

Sincerely,
Larry

On 1/5/2014 4:02 PM, LS wrote:

 

Link fixed:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJx85diM3IE

Justin Bell flogging a Vette and 911 Turbo...real data and great sounds!!!





central

wines-spirits   est 1934

 

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

 

 

 

202-737-2800





 

From: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Fun Semi Daily Driver?

 

"The catastrophic engine failures tend to arrive (at least in the small block of the C6) once the engine is put to task, but I believe these are predictable and preventable design mistakes."

It surely depends on what the task is.

Le Mans victories, a slow lap during a car club track day, backing into a parking spot at Cars and Coffee, etc.

Always question data integrity!

And when you think you have the best data, question it again. Question the sources!

If the sources aren't physically building the car and setting it up for race use, then take their mechanical "failures" with a grain of salt.

Who built the motor? What was done to prep the car? Was it warmed up properly? Was the correct fluid used? Was it cooled off properly? Was it broken in? Was the correct lubricant used for the track, track temp and state of tune? Was the ECU remapped incorrectly? Was it modified improperly? Was it set up for the intended use?

When you combine this lack of preparation and understanding with car abuse and mainstream media outlets, you get invalid and flawed conclusions.

There are only rare moments in the car magazines or online that are worth the disk space they consume. When a seasoned pro racer takes the wheel, the real story comes out.  And a lot of it reflects reality because they don't usually have allegiances to a particular marque.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Beyond firsthand involvement, one has to look to documented world class achievements. Porsche has an amazing racing record with their air cooled motors and modern GT variants. We all know that the later water cooled motors were not designed properly but the earlier 930 based engine has been pretty good. Corvette has been a dominant force at Le Mans for the last 15 yrs.

I would say that your quandary of 930 based 911 GT3 (even without a clutch pedal) and the Corvette for long term reliability is probably the only valid one out there. I would not want to put any other manufacturers into that gamble...

And, I am not really interested in either...just cannot ignore reality.

 They are both winning marques in world class competition and both closely related to their production counterparts. So, if there are big mechanical failuers with these Le Mans winners, it's likely due to the end user.

Please let us know about your GT3...should be quite a piece of hardware.

LS







 

 





central

wines-spirits   est 1934

 

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

 

 

 

202-737-2800





 

From: Adam Green <FlatCrank [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Fun Semi Daily Driver?

 

The acceptance or criticism of an enthusiast car is surely a study of human psychology along the spectrum of hero worship to group hypnosis or mass hysteria ... somewhere in there.

While I've had a very lucky run, knock on good oil pressure, with 911's for nearly 30 years, and we proudly extol the qualities of our 125K mile, zero defect Prius, I can't say the same for Fud or GM at all.  Though I did have a modified, supercharged, 400hp Chevy Tahoe that proved itself over 100K+ miles of towing and general duties.

Yes, they all have their weaknesses and shortcomings, but I come from an E-Type Jaguar background, so I might have rather less demanding expectations than your average 911 driver. : )

 

As for the Stingray, the failures have revolved around the car being delivered to the customer with zero fluids in the transaxle.  The catastrophic engine failures tend to arrive (at least in the small block of the C6) once the engine is put to task, but I believe these are predictable and preventable design mistakes.  The new LT1 is said to address all known failures of the venerable LS series engines of the Corvettes prior to 2014 model year.  Who knows?  I'm just dismayed to see that GM has chosen to put "world class" (and acclaimed) paint quality on its economy cars while neglecting to address panel fit and paint quality on its flagship.)  I fear these early adopter Vette devotees will be holding the unloved model year and it might be 2015 before "the good ones" are written into the Wiki pages of Corvette history.  Now the Z06 variant is known to be arriving by year end and we're coming into "car show" season, I'm happy to wait.  Plus, <gleeful smile> my GT3 gets built this month and arrives next month, just in time for ideal norcal track season weather! : )

 


Adam

 

On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:06 AM, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

I could not stomach reading past page 3...

 

If flat tires, garage door opener programming, wheel alignment and paint issues are the first problems to come to mind on a brand new $49k first year production car, then a readjustment of reference may be needed. 

 

Is there any mention of catastrophic engine failures? 

 

If not, then it is already better engineered and built than 75% of its competitors. I imagined substituting four "engineering" brands for "C7" in the thread and it would have complimented them.

 

Rather than rely on internet threads, I will wait until I can physically inspect one and see one all apart myself.

 

The Vette cabin may have beeen low rent, but so were the competitors. Could anyone care to explain a 996TT interior? It reminded me of the materials used in a 1992 Chevy Cavalier. A person could've died from toxic melting plastic fumes on a hot summer day. And, if I remember correctly, that was not a budget minded production car. 

 

And what about melting interiors on a Ferrari?

 

 

Are you kidding me?! 

 

That one problem alone is worth 500 pages of whining on an internet forum. They could not figure out how to keep an interior from melting in direct sunlight?

 

Did these same engineers also design the SMG masterpiece for BMW? Or the IMS for Porsche? Or the VANOS mess? The GTR diff?

 

I personally could be happy with a random Japanese beater and a collection of vintage dinosaurs. I have no real interest in buying a modern Vette, BMW, Ford, Porsche or Audi.

 

Having said that, why isn't the same criteria used to evaluate all of these cars? 

 

It is absolutely baffling...

 

LS

 

 

 

 

 


On Jan 4, 2014, at 23:36, Adam Green <FlatCrank [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I won't bore the F-Troop with Vette stories, but this 40 page thread has details of the numerous and on-going production fiasco that is GM.

 

I have a couple of closet Corvette friends, mostly using them as stripper track cars -- the 505hp C6 Z06 is a helluva lot of car for the money and with some minor and well-known upgrades, can be a very reliable track car for half the price of a good 911 GT3 setup, and peanuts compared to a Scuderia or Challenge Stradale.  I had ordered the C7 Stingray with exactly that game plan in mind: a thoroughly modern Millicent makeover but still the "analog" of modern sports cars compared to the all electronic Porsche and Ferraris -- a third pedal and just a smart diff to put the power down.  But the cabin is still low rent and the mid-life crisis image meant it would be a track car only.  I appreciate and respect the 60 year history of the Corvette -- I consider it the only car deserving of mention in the same sentence as the 911 in terms of racing pedigree of a single type vehicle.  I also think of it, as a visitor to the USA, as a "when in Rome" driving experience.  Not that I'll drive a Yugo if I go to Russia ...

 

Once the quality problems became evident, I just have no interest in the roll of the dice on paint quality or the time sink of visits to have the dealer finish building the car.  If I'm going to have an unreliable money pit and time sink of a car, it's going to be an Italian thoroughbred, dammit!


Adam

 

On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 4:18 PM, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

Adam, is Audi making the new Vette?

I haven't heard a peep about the build quality problems on the C7. Then again I have seen only one on the street so far.

This is very unlike the "recent" GM as the engineering and build quality of the C5 and C6 have put their European counterparts to shame.

All of my exotic car buddies secretly own Vettes as their track cars and they actually are bulletproof. 98 Coupe, '12 Grand Sport, '08 Z06 and a '99 Coupe...all are also Ferrari and/or Lambo owners.

Everybody has a "reliable" car story.

Vettes might be the closest to functional perfection out there right now.

Lightweight, maintenance free, ultra reliable, 30mpg hwy, incredible track performance, superb racing pedigree, trunk space, easy to drive, no maintenance, no repairs, no maintenance, no repairs, sound, sound...

I just CANNOT see myself ever owning a Vette.

Not sure why...maybe they are just too good and devoid of any character???



LS

 

 



central

wines-spirits   est 1934

 

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

 

 

 

202-737-2800

 

 

 

From: Adam Green <FlatCrank [at] gmail.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:48 PM


Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Fun Semi Daily Driver?

 

I think that advertisement is a bait-n-switch (a common practice in these markets and something frequently noted in corvetteforum C7 discussion) and it reflects the loss of interest in the "old" Corvette at the same time as the "new" Corvette has really screwed the sales pooch because of atrocious build quality production problems, so GM is in a bit of a void of their own making till they reinvent their Corvette factory (mostly by sacking incompetent union pay-check recipients, in my humble.)  I ordered the C7, but found it impossible to go ahead with the car till they solve all kinds of production issues (neglecting to add fluids to the transaxle, hand touch-ups to paint blemishes, runs in the paint, grossly excessive "orange peel" from incorrect curing processing, misalignment of body panels, incorrect operation the hatch release, malfunctioning electronics and dash instrumentation, mediocre leather and stitching, misaligned and ill-fitting cabin trim from design, thumb sized cabin trim gaps around the doors, just to mention the more common examples that lead to me pulling the plug and waiting, and hoping that GM gets their A into G for the Z06 version at the end of 2014.)

 


Adam

 

On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Found this on a different forum talking about the new Z/28 Camaro:

 

 

Too good to be true?

 

FG

 

 

On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Larry T <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:

Ditto - IMO the original headlights (as in Lotus) look better but I know they feel it necessary to update things to attract new buyers...  still a great daily driver.

Sincerely,
Larry

On 1/3/2014 10:19 PM, Robert W. Garven Jr. wrote:

I know your joking but the miata is one of the best sports cars still out there, perfect for my wife and then I get to drive it. The new one is more manly, I cant image a better handling car except for the lotus

for twice the money. This car even has a decent trunk, unfortunately no spare!  The top has only 3 pieces and is a marvel of japanese efficiency! It will turn on a dime....

 

<mime-attachment.jpg>

 

 

Robert W. Garven Jr.

 

 

 "The Ferrari is a dream - people dream of owning this special vehicle and for most people it will remain a dream apart from for those lucky few." Enzo Ferrari

 

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2014, at 10:08 PM, LS wrote:

 

I see nothing in your pic except for a sexy red machine...SORRY!

LS

 

 



central

wines-spirits   est 1934

 

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

 

 

 

202-737-2800

 

 

 

From: Robert W. Garven Jr. <rgarven [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Fun Semi Daily Driver?

 

LD,

 

It has everything but great engine sound but with the extra 10K you could throw a exhaust on it!

If any of you have never driven one of these you are missing out faster than the 308 and as much fun,

folding top sweet GB...  My wifes second one the first one got crunched.... no four seats though!

 

 

 

<Dino & Miata.jpg>

Robert W. Garven Jr.

 

 

 "The Ferrari is a dream - people dream of owning this special vehicle and for most people it will remain a dream apart from for those lucky few." Enzo Ferrari

 

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2014, at 3:30 PM, LS wrote:

 

 

 What would you guys get?

The wife needs something somewhat interesting for three days a week.

1. $40-45k
    1a. At least mid 20s MPG Hwy
    1b. Low Maintenance and Zero Repairs
    1c. 4 seats and a decent trunk
2. High Performance
3. Manual trans
4. Great engine sound
5. Interesting...

LS



central

wines-spirits   est 1934

 

625 e street nw

washington, dc 20004

 

 

 

202-737-2800

 

 

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