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Re: Interior Quality = Engineering? was George's Spitfire vs Vette Shootout
From: Erik Nielsen (judge4regmail.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 18:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Damn hot keys.

I'm going on 12 years now in the industry on the design, development and production site and have worked with basically everyone now.  The big three, all the major players in Japan and Korea, SAIC, the German OEMs, the exotics (Ferrari, Pininfarina, Bentley, Konigsegg, Bugatti, etc...).  They all have their own design philosophy, but more importantly, they all have a budget.  You can even get the bespoke guys to start paying attention when you tell them you're no longer willing to work with them because they are acting like pains.

When you talk about actual durability, one of the main driver's is the emission systems, this side is really legislated and you may laugh, but the legal requirement is that those "bits" have to work for 8 years/80k miles.  (http://www.epa.gov/obd/pubs/420f09048.pdf).  That's it.  One could make the argument (and plenty do), that if the design is 10 years/100k miles, everything is good.  Sounds like a Cayenne needing the drive train replaced at 125k miles, no?

Car companies are no different than the white goods industry, they're not selling something to last forever, they want repeat business.  The trick is how do they get you to replace something when it gets to around 8 years without pissing you off so bad that you will not buy another product from them?  

There is a steep learning curve going on right now with pushing more "consumer electronics" onto the dash, every new car seems to have a tablet interface now, those that really work in IT know that a lap top really should be replaced every 18 months.  Oh yeah, I can see this ending well.  The link shared for the new Corvette said to replace the center console for some of the HVAC issues.  These items don't have the greatest mean time to failure lifetimes...

Where Mercedes did a good job was on simplicity.  Yes, 240Ds are still running around, but when was the last time you saw a driver (not show car) 450SEL 6.9 on the road?  Those things are ridiculously complicated and will bankrupt a minor Russian oligarch trying to bring one back from the dead.  Late 70's bullet proof panzerwagen?  Nein, der teufel wird los sein.

The design costs and tooling are now approaching (or in some cases exceed) $1 billion for a platform, with roughly a 4 year design window.  The biggest issue are going to be ensuring everything works together (100's of thousands of lines of code on multiple processors, this isn't plug and play) and still being able to hit a target price for a component in the companies where the purchasing guys can over rule the designers and engineers.  Everyone knows these stories from cheap plastic interiors to paint that has so much orange peel that it makes the moonscape look like a mirror.

If you want something that lasts a long time, go with simple and something that is designed to be rebuilt.  Why do you think 1967 MY cars are considered the pinnacle of the hobby?  Those where the last year before real regulations from DOT came into play...

There will be more and more rationalization in the industry and more and more sharing of platforms.  CO2 regulations (read: fuel economy) will drive cars to smaller displacement (even Ferrari is leaking the news that they are going to turbos, want a sneak peek - look under the hood of the new Ghibli).  Carbon fiber is seen as a potential game changer, but it still costs too much for mass fabrication.  All of the comfort iPhone interface, massaging butt warmers, etc... that the mocha latte drinking crowd has demanded is only putting more weight onto the cars as they have figured out how to get a 5 start crash rating with less steel.

And don't even get me started on autonomous driving cars.  My goal as a father is to make sure that my son scares the living crap out of his DMV test drive by heel and toeing...

Cheers,
Erik


On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:
Funny.  You guys actually think that cars are designed to last.  They may be expensive, but they are after all designed to be disposable consumer items.

I'm going on 1


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 6:29 PM, Larry T <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:
I have a '78 240D (backup daily driver)  - the basic MB they sold all over Europe that are used as Taxi's in many places.   It's kinda slow it's not a lot of fun but it's like driving a tank.   I believe they sold more of the W123 chassis' MBs (240D, 300D, 320E, etc  -  same basic cars with different engines) than any other in history.   Of course the USA version was tricked out with all accessories - AC, PW, PL, etc.   It unnecessarily complicates them, IMO.  Mine is a typical US version.  We now have 330,000 miles on it and the body will rust away before the drive train fails.    Being a diesel the maintenance is pretty simple - air and oil filters, oil changes and little else other than wear items.    Our '91 300D  (W124) is a world ahead of the 240D - a 5 cyl. turbo diesel that still gets 30mpg will normal driving, such as to work and shopping.   Plenty of power and over 230K & still going strong.  Every thing still works - power this and that and the only thing i need to fix is the switch that telescopes the steering wheel. 

    As you can tell, I am a fan of the late 70s to mid 90s MBs - especially diesels.  Having said that I would really hesitate buying any MB newer than about '95.  There are so many people unhappy with the quality there must be some reality there.  People have paint falling from doors of new S class sedans.    Then there's the wiring that is designed to disintegrate after X years.  Who decides when I have owned my MB too long?  What a moronic law!    Many people have spent $3000+ having wiring harnesses replaced.  AC systems have a propensity to leak inside the dash - an expensive repair.   I'd love a W140 S Class (mid to late 90s) but the quality is too spotty.   They are very luxurious with double pane windows and lots of insulation but those things are of little help if the only one enjoying them are the shop technicians!  Also, the V12's are often pretty inexpensive - until the maintenance bill hits ;-) 

    It's be laughable if it weren't so darned expensive for many owners.   Porsche went through many of the same mandated wiring problems.  Must have cost their country a lot of money in the end.  Well, have a good week.  I may try a '00- 13 diesel model one day but I'm not much for gambling my money...  
Sincerely,
Larry

 
On 1/6/2014 6:19 PM, LS wrote:
Good points...the 240D, and I think I know the one you are referring to, was a piece of work.

My take is that in the late 80s and early 90s, Lexus/Acura/Infiniti put the scare into the high end Euro brands.

They had to restructure and cut costs by outsourcing a lot of their manufacturing to contractors. This outsourcing lowered the level of quality control and things started to unravel quickly.

So, with the next wave of plasticky, cheaper Euro cars of the 1990s/early 2000s, quality was much lower and margins were even thinner than when the first Japanese luxury brands started.

Quality started to slip even more and the pressure was on to stay current with electronics and "technology" to give the Euro brands a perceived advantage.

Instead, what was left of R&D went into retooling and redesigning aging drive trains that were at the end of their useful life and really offered no real performance. The marketing departments went into overdrive to shift the focus and attention to "features" like more cylinders and variable valve timing, since the R&D was already there...even if they couldn't improve them at all.

The culmination of this fraud was something like the BMW V10. The engine is only 5 liters, yet it's physically the size and weight of a small house in Chicago and returns 10 mpg downhill while only managing 500 hp. Even better is that even routine maintenance cost 25% of the cars resale value and they put it in a 4000lb chassis which further stressed everything. Needless to say, competitor engines made the same power with much less mass yet returned double the fuel economy and required almost no maintenance.

Remember the "I hope the engine starts to make some power soon" thought when you first floored a V10 M5?

If it's marketed as F1 technology, all is ok right?

Instead of scratching their engine programs, many manufacturers just add forced induction.

Why?

For one, the manufacturer doesn't really have to do a very good job of designing the engine. You can just add weight and heavier forged parts everywhere. Anybody can do that right? Forget cylinder head flow, piston speed and intake runner design. Put in heavier cranks, rods and then just slap a turbo or supercharger onto it. It'll solve their need for more power (since their original engine design was tapped out a decade ago) and also add 74 more parts (aka revenue generators) made of fragile plastic. The best part about forced induction? When a competitor comes out with an amazing new engine design, all that is needed is to remap the ECU for a 40 hp boost. In a short amount of time and for almost free, the competitor's engine has been challenged. The engine's life has been shortened also, but it only has to last through the warranty.

Cars were blowing up left and right with rushed development and using uncharted (for these marques) technology. Reliability was in a nose dive and so were sales.

Profits were sinking...so could be done?

There needed to be a revenue stream *after* the sale. The problem is that were only so many $100 golf shirts and $500 car covers that someone will buy at delivery.

Service!

Start with small but ridiculously priced maintenance and then slowly start the feeding frenzy...

Instead of using aluminum in critical mechanical systems, start using plastic and claim it's there due to weight savings. Hopefully, the buyer isn't smart enough to realize that the vehicle in question is a 4200lb sedan where saving 4.3oz will accomplish nothing.

Plastic, while being cheaper, also has a shorter service life and will fail regularly. When it does, the manufacturer can sell the customer another part for an exorbitant price. Design a few other systems using this philosophy and you've got a real money maker long term.

Then, start adding electronics at an alarming rate. There needed to be a perception that they are leading the Japanese and American manufacturers in technology. The electronics were not well developed and worse, they were being made by outside contractors. The dead ECUs, faulty O2 sensors and Check Engine lights became the language of the monthly visit to the dealership.

It wasn't that bad at the dealership...the coffee was ridiculous, the leather couches were comfortable and did you see the blonde receptionist? And the brunette service manager? And you got a loaner car...sometimes a 5 series even though you brought in a 3 series!

Once word got out that the cars were in the shop more than at redline, they had to start offering free service for the first 3 yrs matching the bumper to bumper warranty. This gave the customer the warm and fuzzy that they wouldn't have to pay more for their German car compared to anything else.

Guess how long the compromised systems with the plastic parts lasted? 3 yrs and 17 days.

<Cue cash register sound here>

So the cars are "engineered"...not to be reliable and dependable but to make money and they do an excellent job of that.

One result today is that the BMW M3 is one of the slower rear drive, 4 seat sport coupes/sedans available on the market...AROUND A ROAD COURSE!

It is literally the choice for someone who is not concerned with performance but wants...something else in their ultra high performance sports sedan. Maybe the choice to not shift gears themselves? A nice interior? A place to hang out...in a club like environment, where they sell and service cars?

Boy do I miss my BMW E30 Convertible!

Now that was a sports sedan...

Long rant from my phone...sorry for typos!

LS



 
central
wines-spirits   est 1934

625 e street nw
washington, dc 20004






From: Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2014 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Interior Quality = Engineering? was George's Spitfire vs Vette Shootout

It's been a long time since Mercedes Benz and perhaps BMW were considered elite engineering, at least when it came to reliability and build quality.

Nowadays they are just big, fast, prestigious cars but hardly anything to write home about as far as being bulletproof. 

Accounting and planned obsolescence are two brutal b****es that can't be ignored in modern manufacturing. Combine that with the elite brands that constantly cater to customers who want more and more "stuff" in their cars and are willing to tolerate whatever to have the cool cars, and you can see where the problems lie. 

I also believe that the modern luxury car buyer mentality is more in line with swapping cars out every 2-3 years, instead of keeping for 150-200k miles. That has to have an effect on build quality/design/engineering.

The Mercedes Benz 240D is the hallmark of longevity. It's totally not my cup of tea but that incredible build quality is somewhat inspiring.

FG


On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:59 PM, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
George, your example is perfect.

The car with the better door panels is of higher quality and design?

We can see that in Spitfire vs. Corvette!

The exact opposite is more true in reality...seems that a cheaper interior will yield the better engineering elsewhere.

Where would you want the manufacturer's skills to be displayed?

Main bearing tolerances or door panel fasteners?

Suspension design or ashtray lighting?

If interiors are absolutely your #1 priority in a car, then I can accept that.

A disgruntled ex BMW buddy of mine sent me this recently:


He sold all of his BMWs and MBs after years of big bills across many cars.

LS


On Jan 5, 2014, at 16:18, George <ygpz4re [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

Lashdeep,

Concur fully.  If GM can't make a door panel that stays in place on a car that's not even 20 years old yet (and yet a small British maker like Triumph can), what else have they totally "Fouled" up??

Regards,

George P.

On Jan 5, 2014, at 4:09 PM, "LS" <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

George,  I'm afraid that if you are worried about floppy panels, the other more serious engineering problems out there will scare the life out of you.

What does everyone think about plastic interior panels like some of the 996 Porsche models? As long as they don't loosen up? What if they chip and lose their finish but still stay fixed in their original position?

What if the interior parts melt(like in a Ferrari)...but don't become floppy?

Does anyone need a drink right now?

Can my interior race your interior?

How can the market put such a high priority on interior quality yet spend $100k, like Adam did, on the mechanical maintenance of their Cayenne?

I'm not a big 911 fan, but even I cannot deny a well sorted early 911 S or a 930. They are AMAZING cars.

I am not going to fight it and convince myself they aren't engineered to be fun and successful.

If interior quality is #1 priority, then so be it.

If you don't like a car just because, then just admit it...

I will...and that's prob why I won't buy a Corvette !!!

LS

 
central
wines-spirits   est 1934

625 e street nw
washington, dc 20004






From: George <ygpz4re [at] hotmail.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Digest, Vol 90, Issue 24

Regarding FG's comment below about Vette interiors, I have just the following to add:  one of my best friends has a '96 Vette "Collector Edition", with LT-4 engine.  Gobs of power and torque and fun to drive, but when you close the driver side door, the interior door panel flops loose.  Even my POS 70's vintage Spitfire doesn't do that.  Of course it also lacks the power/torque, but Jeesh, you'd think a company the size of GM could do better than that.  I think the new Vettes are really terrific cars, but like LS, I just couldn't see myself ever owning one, just on general principles (that it's a GM product).  How long before a C7 has a floppy door panel, or worse??

My 2 lira.

Regards,

George P.

>
> I've been around a lot of real picky in the a*** car guys who have hated on
> Vette interiors since the dawn of time,
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