Ferrari Mailing List: Re: V10 in Ferrari street car

[Rick Moseley (ramosel]

Years ago...  in a galaxy far, far.... no wrong story.  Years ago one of my buddies (Keegan?) gave me a CD that was nothing but cockpit recordings of the great cars circulating Le Mans.   To this day it is still one of my favorite things to listen to when I'm on the road.   Hands down, the 917K was the most surprising and most enduring.   Pure automotive GRUNT.   And yet, completely different when heard trackside.

---

From: Charles Perry <charles [at] carolina-sound.com>
To: Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] V10 in Ferrari street car

And with so many cars now supplementing or modifying their “engine” noise via everything from tuned pipes through the firewall to audio mixing via the stereo, it’s getting harder to figure out what a real engine note is outside of the pure performance cars.

 

 

 

From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+charles=carolina-sound.com [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Fellippe Galletta
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 7:36 AM
To: Charles Perry
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] V10 in Ferrari street car

 

It's a fascinating topic.....

The general non performance principle behind cylinder count is to have enough cylinders at a given displacement for overall smoothness.

 

Outside of parasitic losses, the general principle behind cylinder count with respect to performance to me has been these tenets:

1. For given displacement, more cylinders = higher revving/higher HP, lower cylinders = lower revving/higher torque

2. For given cylinder displacement, higher bore for hp, higher stroke for torque

It explains why American muscle has been so fixated on the V8 (the Viper notwithstanding), and the exotics like to gravitate to the V10 and V12 when possible.

The V10 in the LFA was rationalized using point #1 above, as a healthy medium between torque and horsepower.

 

I've read that a V12 needs a healthy displacement to be effective, efficiency wise...hence a 3.0 L V12 not being optimal use.

Surely you have exceptions to the rule (N/A 4.0L flat 6 911 GT3RS motors, putting out 500 hp and revving to 8k)....

But it seems that those SAE lessons have not been ignored:

I-3: BMW I8 (in combination with electric motor)

I-5: Audi TT RS......Volvo/VW/Audi have invested a bit in the I-5

V-10: Viper, Gallardo/Huracan, R8, Carrera GT, E60 M5, LFA

 

I owned an I-5 for a few years.....it's a sound you will neither love or hate, which is probably why it (and the V10) have some fundamental road blocks against it, marketing wise.

Having said that, I'd love to see how Ferrari would interpret a V10.....just once.

 

FG

 

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:40 AM, Doug & Terri <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:

So why all the cylinders?  In theory, the more swept piston crown area, the more horse power.  In theory.

So in the mid-1960’s BRM took the bull by the tail and looked the situation square in the eye – 16 (as in sixteen) cylinders.  Two flat 8’s on top of each other driving a jack shaft to the clutch and transmission.

Where can you see one of these in action?  Why John Frankenheimer’ s movie “Grand Prix.”  The last race at Monza.  Weird sounding little beastie.

So Rick’s observation of “. . . parasitic loss vs. number of cylinders”  is the reason we don’t see these trick motors today.

Onward

DOUG

 

From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moseley
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 6:10 PM
To: DOUG <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] V10 in Ferrari street car

 

 

 

Clyde,

I was mighty impressed with the LFA I got to ride in.

 

Agree with you on the NSX.  Very nice car, but not impressive.

 

Fellippe,

Many years back the SAE published a paper on the relationship of parasitic loss vs. number of cylinders.  In short their findings were that the auto makers were doing it all wrong.  The best relationship numbers for efficiency were the I3, I5 and V10.  So the I4, I6, V6, V8 and V12 formats just weren't that sweet spot. There is a reason the F1 boys went to V10s many years ago.  And a stupid reason they have abandoned them.

 

Side note: I've talked to my friend, the F1 trackside support for a big name company (Brian, Clyde and few others know who I mean) and he said that with modern materials and valve trains they have minimized those relational differences but yes they still exist.  Its just physics and they haven't (yet) found a way around it.  But when everyone plays with the same handicap, it really doesn't matter.

 

The Viper V10 is the worst sounding thing... but I think that is because of the valve angles.   Sounds like a chainsaw to me.

My favorite.... Alfa Romeo V12 F1 motor.   efficient or not.

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

The LFA is a joke much like the NSX new version or old versions 

The Japanese don’t get it 

Never have never will

The tried there damnedest with NSX but fell way short of the mark

Japan builds reliable cars with no Panache !

Much like Porsche and Mercedes 

And blenders!

 

 

 

 
On Feb 5, 2018, at 6:26 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Do you guys think that if Ferrari eschewed turbocharging in their V8 cars, that at some point a V10 would be/would have been sought after once the displacement neared/exceeded 5.0 liters?

The Gallardo started off at a 5.0L, and the LFA a 4.8.....it seems this is the sweet spot for a flat plane crank exotic motor of 10 cylinders.

Maybe Ferrari goes back to the F310B just like they did the 641 for the F50.

I'm not a huge fan of the V10 sound, but seeing that the LFA made a pretty sweet sounding one, I'd imagine Ferrari would be able to do just as good or better.

 

FG

 

 

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