Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)

[Hans E. Hansen (FList]

First off, I've owned many Corvettes and other Chevy's with the
previous small block V8, so I'm not slamming it in any way.  It worked
well for some 40+ years.  And is still popular with the street rod
crowd today.

But I was also around a lot of race teams, large and very small.
Stock cars, sprint cars, SCCA GT1, TransAm and even a very small F5000
team. Just on a "Hi, how are you?" basis, I didn't work for them
except to help source components occasionally and run to the snack bar
for them.  Even with the best components, it was not reliable for long
term racing use. Engine builders like Traco charged $50k and more for
racing engines, (huge money in the 60's, 70's, and 80's), but they had
to be rebuilt frequently to avoid the inevitable "Boom".  That's why I
was a bit skeptical about it's usage in the Vector.  Stressing this
thing to 650hp was a recipe for disaster if it wasn't tore down and
refreshed.  How many owners would know that, and would they have
bought the car if they did?  As a practical matter, most owners would
likely punch the gas for a few seconds, and then put the car back in
the garage.  Actual time on the motors would probably be quite
limited.  But I really don't think over the long term this would have
been the best choice.

The biggest issue with the old small block was the bottom end.  Billet
and forged cranks helped, but the journal sizes just didn't allow for
a truly robust solution.  Also, the bearing caps left a little to be
desired.  The high performance blocks had 4 bolt caps, which helped.
More extensive modifications included a sort of girdle arrangement
that tied together and reinforced the bearing caps.  But the bearings
themselves were still inadequate for long term use at extreme loads.

Bob Lutz was one of the first to recognize the inherent weakness of
the design.  He was in charge of Adam Opel in Germany in the late
1950's.  He wanted the then new V8 for a large Opel sedan.  But the
engines quickly came apart on extended Autobahn use.  With help from
Ed Cole and Zora Duntov, they managed to put together motors that were
just barely adequate for the task.  The mods included the 4 bolt
bearing caps and modified high pressure, high volume oiling system as
well as forged crank and rods.

All of this got handled with the advent of the "LS" series of V8
engines introduced in the 1997 Corvette and a couple of years later in
trucks.  Deep skirted block with 6 bolt caps and much larger bearings.
Oddly enough, the design spec for performance engines and truck
engines are similar.  Both have to be designed to withstand long
periods of full throttle.  I hopefully have attached an image of the
end of the LS block showing the block extending well below the
centerline of the crank, and the large bearing cap.

Hans.

On 1/28/21, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:
> The first Isdera was amazing!!
>
> I really like the v8 rumble from the MB engines also.
>
> I know Hans mentioned the “Chevy V8” in the Vector but the actual production
> engine was a truly top shelf Rodeck unit with no production car components.
>
> 625hp in the mid 80s was considerable.
>
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 23:52, Peter Rychel <dino308gt4 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Good to hear that and thanks for sharing your experiences with these cars.
>> Other than seeing only a handful of them on display, I’ve never gotten a
>> chance to even ride in them.
>>
>> Another esoteric ‘80s/’90s supercar I was always fascinated with is the
>> Isdera Imperator 108i. An evolution model is coming up for sale at RM’s
>> Paris auction next month. I always preferred the earlier one’s clean
>> lines. The car was inspired by Mercedes prototype test car, the C-111.
>> Just like the Vector, only a handful were ever built and it seems most
>> never left Germany.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>>
>> From: Lashdeep Singh
>> Sent: January 27, 2021 10:56 AM
>> To: Peter Rychel
>> Cc: The FerrariList
>> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)
>>
>> Unfortunately, never got above 90mph in the situation I was in.
>>
>> Maybe on my next trip we can get further out.
>>
>> They did a lot of testing up to 190mph (GPS verified).
>>
>> There are some positive track impressions from the media.
>>
>> A recent TV show ran one at Thunderhill and it was not far off the lap
>> record.
>>
>> Very, very impressive...
>>
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 23:32, Peter Rychel <dino308gt4 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> So, the handling was great, but what about aero? Did you ever get fast
>> enough to evaluate any stability issues?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>>
>> From: Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari
>> Sent: January 26, 2021 8:27 PM
>> To: PeterGT4
>> Cc: The FerrariList
>> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)
>>
>> I will ask David about the purple car and why it was so bad.
>>
>> When I first met him in 2005, I asked all of the nerdy questions and he
>> answered with live demonstrations at his shop.
>>
>> They guaranteed every single customer car produced 625 hp and did 125mph
>> in the 1/4 mile.
>>
>> It certainly felt it too...
>>
>> Chassis was superb also. Very composed and well tuned. They got the spring
>> rate/ride balance down.
>>
>> I have been very lucky to have experienced a lot of the great 70s/80s
>> exotics over many, many hours at high speed.
>>
>> Countach
>> Diablo
>> TR
>> BB
>> Pantera GT5
>> Esprit Turbo
>> 930
>> 959
>> F40
>>
>> The W8 ranks up there with the most impressive of the group.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:10, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > No, don't know the chassis number.  At the time, he was either a
>> > dealer for them, or more likely considering being a dealer for them.
>> > I don't think the car was molested in any manor, and had few miles on
>> > it.  But some of the employees in charge of the car collection most
>> > definitely didn't speak highly of the driving experience - like the
>> > windshield wanting to remove itself at highway speeds.
>> >
>> > Hans.
>> >
>> >> On 1/25/21, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Hans, a few of the W8s have been butchered by shops who don’t know the
>> >> car.
>> >>
>> >> Taken apart and reassembled incorrectly with inferior parts.
>> >>
>> >> Do you remember the chassis number of that car at Tonkin?
>> >>
>> >> A friend of mine was one of the first Vector employees and he showed me
>> >> two
>> >> cars that he has serviced since new.
>> >>
>> >> Very, very impressive machines in person.
>> >>
>> >> I would rate the build and materials at or higher than its
>> >> contemporaries.
>> >>
>> >> Everything was hand built on that car.
>> >>
>> >> The driving experience was in my top 3 of “Wait, journalists insisted
>> >> that
>> >> this thing was supposed to be XXX and it’s really NOT anything close
>> >> to
>> >> that.”
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2021, at 13:43, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Ron Tonkin (Portland Ferrari dealer) had one.  I thought the build
>> >>> quality was appalling. They said at anything above highway speeds,
>> >>> the
>> >>> windshield was wanting to come out.  Thought it was odd that what was
>> >>> promoted as the ultimate supercar had a small block Chevy in it.  And
>> >>> a three speed auto, which was likely a TH400.
>> >>>
>> >>> Curious feature was the bench seats.  Wiegert apparently wanted the
>> >>> car to be usable for "romantic encounters".  Wouldn't be too terribly
>> >>> romantic if the driver ended up in the passenger's lap on fast left
>> >>> hand corners......
>> >>>
>> >>> Hans.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 1/20/21, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> Amazing story...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/vector-supercar-creator-jerry-wiegert-still-looking-for-a-second-chance-dies-at-76/
>> >>
>> >>
>>
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>

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