Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)

[Hans E. Hansen (FList]

Your memory of ancient history is much better than mine.  I recall
blue "crate" motors from one of the major builders, but I forget which
one....

A friend mentioned that he used some Traco motors in his F5000 car, I
can ask him.  If he can remember....

Hans.

On 1/29/21, Douglas Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:
> In the mid 60's at the CanAm's Traco and one other "rental" engine were used
> by some teams.  One was painted grey, the other was painted blue.  Do you
> recall who was what color and what was the other engine builder?
>
> Drag racing saw tons of small blocks.  One of my early favorites was a twin
> engine Freight Train.  Little stubby exhaust pipes before Zoomies - 20 feet
> away from the start in the "expensive" $2.00 seats.
>
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ferrari <ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com> On Behalf Of
> Hans E. Hansen
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 11:50 AM
> To: DOUG <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)
>
> First off, I've owned many Corvettes and other Chevy's with the previous
> small block V8, so I'm not slamming it in any way.  It worked well for some
> 40+ years.  And is still popular with the street rod crowd today.
>
> But I was also around a lot of race teams, large and very small.
> Stock cars, sprint cars, SCCA GT1, TransAm and even a very small F5000 team.
> Just on a "Hi, how are you?" basis, I didn't work for them except to help
> source components occasionally and run to the snack bar for them.  Even with
> the best components, it was not reliable for long term racing use. Engine
> builders like Traco charged $50k and more for racing engines, (huge money in
> the 60's, 70's, and 80's), but they had to be rebuilt frequently to avoid
> the inevitable "Boom".  That's why I was a bit skeptical about it's usage in
> the Vector.  Stressing this thing to 650hp was a recipe for disaster if it
> wasn't tore down and refreshed.  How many owners would know that, and would
> they have bought the car if they did?  As a practical matter, most owners
> would likely punch the gas for a few seconds, and then put the car back in
> the garage.  Actual time on the motors would probably be quite limited.  But
> I really don't think over the long term this would have been the best
> choice.
>
> The biggest issue with the old small block was the bottom end.  Billet and
> forged cranks helped, but the journal sizes just didn't allow for a truly
> robust solution.  Also, the bearing caps left a little to be desired.  The
> high performance blocks had 4 bolt caps, which helped.
> More extensive modifications included a sort of girdle arrangement that tied
> together and reinforced the bearing caps.  But the bearings themselves were
> still inadequate for long term use at extreme loads.
>
> Bob Lutz was one of the first to recognize the inherent weakness of the
> design.  He was in charge of Adam Opel in Germany in the late 1950's.  He
> wanted the then new V8 for a large Opel sedan.  But the engines quickly came
> apart on extended Autobahn use.  With help from Ed Cole and Zora Duntov,
> they managed to put together motors that were just barely adequate for the
> task.  The mods included the 4 bolt bearing caps and modified high pressure,
> high volume oiling system as well as forged crank and rods.
>
> All of this got handled with the advent of the "LS" series of V8 engines
> introduced in the 1997 Corvette and a couple of years later in trucks.  Deep
> skirted block with 6 bolt caps and much larger bearings.
> Oddly enough, the design spec for performance engines and truck engines are
> similar.  Both have to be designed to withstand long periods of full
> throttle.  I hopefully have attached an image of the end of the LS block
> showing the block extending well below the centerline of the crank, and the
> large bearing cap.
>
> Hans.
>
> On 1/28/21, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> wrote:
>> The first Isdera was amazing!!
>>
>> I really like the v8 rumble from the MB engines also.
>>
>> I know Hans mentioned the “Chevy V8” in the Vector but the actual
>> production engine was a truly top shelf Rodeck unit with no production car
>> components.
>>
>> 625hp in the mid 80s was considerable.
>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 23:52, Peter Rychel <dino308gt4 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Good to hear that and thanks for sharing your experiences with these
>>> cars.
>>> Other than seeing only a handful of them on display, I’ve never
>>> gotten a chance to even ride in them.
>>>
>>> Another esoteric ‘80s/’90s supercar I was always fascinated with is
>>> the Isdera Imperator 108i. An evolution model is coming up for sale
>>> at RM’s Paris auction next month. I always preferred the earlier
>>> one’s clean lines. The car was inspired by Mercedes prototype test car,
>>> the C-111.
>>> Just like the Vector, only a handful were ever built and it seems
>>> most never left Germany.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Lashdeep Singh
>>> Sent: January 27, 2021 10:56 AM
>>> To: Peter Rychel
>>> Cc: The FerrariList
>>> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, never got above 90mph in the situation I was in.
>>>
>>> Maybe on my next trip we can get further out.
>>>
>>> They did a lot of testing up to 190mph (GPS verified).
>>>
>>> There are some positive track impressions from the media.
>>>
>>> A recent TV show ran one at Thunderhill and it was not far off the
>>> lap record.
>>>
>>> Very, very impressive...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 23:32, Peter Rychel <dino308gt4 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> So, the handling was great, but what about aero? Did you ever get
>>> fast enough to evaluate any stability issues?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari
>>> Sent: January 26, 2021 8:27 PM
>>> To: PeterGT4
>>> Cc: The FerrariList
>>> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vector Twin Turbo Designer Passes Away (NFC)
>>>
>>> I will ask David about the purple car and why it was so bad.
>>>
>>> When I first met him in 2005, I asked all of the nerdy questions and
>>> he answered with live demonstrations at his shop.
>>>
>>> They guaranteed every single customer car produced 625 hp and did
>>> 125mph in the 1/4 mile.
>>>
>>> It certainly felt it too...
>>>
>>> Chassis was superb also. Very composed and well tuned. They got the
>>> spring rate/ride balance down.
>>>
>>> I have been very lucky to have experienced a lot of the great 70s/80s
>>> exotics over many, many hours at high speed.
>>>
>>> Countach
>>> Diablo
>>> TR
>>> BB
>>> Pantera GT5
>>> Esprit Turbo
>>> 930
>>> 959
>>> F40
>>>
>>> The W8 ranks up there with the most impressive of the group.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:10, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > No, don't know the chassis number.  At the time, he was either a
>>> > dealer for them, or more likely considering being a dealer for them.
>>> > I don't think the car was molested in any manor, and had few miles
>>> > on it.  But some of the employees in charge of the car collection
>>> > most definitely didn't speak highly of the driving experience -
>>> > like the windshield wanting to remove itself at highway speeds.
>>> >
>>> > Hans.
>>> >
>>> >> On 1/25/21, Lashdeep Singh <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> Hans, a few of the W8s have been butchered by shops who don’t know
>>> >> the car.
>>> >>
>>> >> Taken apart and reassembled incorrectly with inferior parts.
>>> >>
>>> >> Do you remember the chassis number of that car at Tonkin?
>>> >>
>>> >> A friend of mine was one of the first Vector employees and he
>>> >> showed me two cars that he has serviced since new.
>>> >>
>>> >> Very, very impressive machines in person.
>>> >>
>>> >> I would rate the build and materials at or higher than its
>>> >> contemporaries.
>>> >>
>>> >> Everything was hand built on that car.
>>> >>
>>> >> The driving experience was in my top 3 of “Wait, journalists
>>> >> insisted that this thing was supposed to be XXX and it’s really
>>> >> NOT anything close to that.”
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2021, at 13:43, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ron Tonkin (Portland Ferrari dealer) had one.  I thought the
>>> >>> build quality was appalling. They said at anything above highway
>>> >>> speeds, the windshield was wanting to come out.  Thought it was
>>> >>> odd that what was promoted as the ultimate supercar had a small
>>> >>> block Chevy in it.  And a three speed auto, which was likely a
>>> >>> TH400.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Curious feature was the bench seats.  Wiegert apparently wanted
>>> >>> the car to be usable for "romantic encounters".  Wouldn't be too
>>> >>> terribly romantic if the driver ended up in the passenger's lap
>>> >>> on fast left hand corners......
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hans.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On 1/20/21, Lashdeep Singh via Ferrari <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> Amazing story...
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/vector-supercar-creator-jerry
>>> >>>> -wiegert-still-looking-for-a-second-chance-dies-at-76/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
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>>
>
>