Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Civilian Astronaut

[A.J. (newgent2tx]

The fact that Vindman called for his court martial is hilarious to me. Talk about the pot calling the kettle… FWIW, I actually know guys that went through Ranger School with Vindman and they all agreed he was a useless f*ck chow thief (literally the lowest thing you can be in a school where you’re constantly starving). 

Milley is useless politician. Always has been. I worked directly with him at both 10th Mountain and the 101st, know people who worked directly with him at 5th SFG and III Corps, and he was a piece of crap mealy-mouthed douchebag the whole time. Milley is a legacy of Clinton and Obama years, a politician who made his biggest moves throughout his career by playing sensitivity woke politics to pander to the left and was shepherded throughout his career by those looking to push that agenda. The most telling part about Milley is how little SF work he did while at 5th Group. As a buddy of mine (who was at 5th Group at the same time put it), “He got his green beret, but he damned sure never used it.”

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 5:31 AM Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Well, you left that whole lead in part out.  Obviously context matters so good for her.

The funny thing about Milley is that he looks the part.  But when he speaks?  Wow, he sounds like a dude with a man bun wearing a dress.  How the hell does a guy like that get to his position?  And, yes, he should be court martialed.  And if this is where our military is going, we are more screwed than I thought.  I hate what has happened to our media and colleges but, this, is awful.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 1:15 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Again, you are making suppositions based on your life experiences, your perspective, your kids, your methods, your reality.  You are dead wrong and nothing could be further from the truth for us.   To quote Adam Savage, I reject your reality and substitute my own.

She had come home 3 weeks prior from an afternoon out with some of her friends at a amusement park that had installed one of those 200 foot pinwheel rides.  (Keegan, the Scandia at I-80 and Madison  remember the place?  Long blue neon lights on the arms lit up the night sky)  She was quite angry with herself and feeling rather embarrassed that she was the only one in the group who didn't go on that ride.   She was asking for help the best way she knew how without saying it outright.  Her mom taught her that.  So I told her, next time you lose the basketball up on the roof, we're going to go get it together.   And we did.  It took her 3 weeks but she finally came and got me and told me the ball was on the roof.  Was it an accident?  Did she do it on purpose?  Don't know, never asked. Don't care.  She was ready, without having to say so or ask for the help.  I was with her every step of the way, every minute.  I felt every tear.  Every inch she scooted, I scooted too. If it took 8 hours, I wasn't going anywhere.  Fortunately it only took a little more than 1 hour.   Courageous... never entered my mind.   I saw the relief and sense of accomplishment on her part when she tossed that ball down into the front yard.  There was no reason to attach any level of bravado to her accomplishment.  I was just proud of her and I let her know.

Yes, she was happy it was over.  And damn proud of herself for doing it.  Through the tears came a big grin.  I think it was the first step that lead to going skydiving a few years later.   She scooted back up the roof much quicker.  The next morning I got a huge kiss and an even bigger hug as she was on her way out the door. So tuck any idea of abuse away in your reality.  It has no place in ours.  I never mollycoddled my kid.

Milley... even before these latest accusations I thought of him as a buffoon.  He lost sight of his true job and was playing politician, perhaps even [worse], diplomat (ala Vindman).  He was obviously wrong about Afghanistan.  He should go.  If he had any dignity, he'd resign and retire but I don't think his ego will allow it.  *If* the accusations regarding the call to China are true, he should face a Court Martial for treason.  I heard even Vindman is saying he should resign.

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 08:58:30 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

That is a pretty severe fear of heights.  I have to be honest.  What you did could be considered borderline abusive.  While I get your intent, you have to admit that you forced her to do it.  She wasn't asking to be cured of her fear.  I mean, sure, she might be more prepared to go to war or escape a house fire now but was it worth it?  Hopefully and probably she will never have to do either.  She was probably just happy it was over.   

On the topic of courage, your example is a good example of someone having an extreme fear that YOU knew wasn't really life threatening.  And she didn't voluntarily choose to face it.  So do you consider her courageous?  If so, would you think the same of someone else in that situation or similar?  Like I said, would you allow someone else, not your kid, to call that a win or would you tell them they don't get it?  

I never implied courage on the basketball court is the same as courage on the battlefield.  I only said the definition holds.  And I clarified that I understood the risks and rewards were more extreme.  But, to a 13 year old kid playing up on varsity, the fear of taking and missing a shot is pretty real.  The smart 13 year old needs to show courage.  The dumb 13 year old will just chuck up shots and not care how much his teammates hate him.  If the smart 13 year old learns to take good shots despite his fear, I will call it courage.  I don't feel like I have to say to the kid, "Well, that's nice but it isn't real courage.  What is your biggest fear?  Oh, spiders?  Let me pour this bucket of black widows on you and if you don't flinch, they won't kill you and, THEN, you will be courageous!"  Why even go there?  As in my hypothetical, your inclination to doubt and challenge people could prove to be self-defeating.  That person who "doesn't get it" could save your life some day.

On a vaguely related topic, what do you think of this General Milley?

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 8:16 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

You still don't get it.  But, you don't need to. We'll leave it at that.   Apples and Bungee cords.

My daughter was hysterical, and not in the funny sense.  She was afraid of dying if she slipped off.

Having lost her mom to an aneurysm, death was/is very real to her.  She had to go 10ft from the ladder to the edge of the roof where the ball was behind the backboard.  Took her over an hour, last 5 feet was on her butt an inch at a time.   Hyperventilating, crying, hiccuping...  I think she was getting dehydrated.   All through dinner though, she had a grin from ear to ear.   And she was more careful about wild shots with the basketball.

FWIW:  always pack your own chute.  They'll teach you.   It give you peace of mind.  If something does go wrong, you've only yourself to blame.  It save the poor kid packing chutes from second-guessing himself for life over your death.

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 04:46:11 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

OK, this is better.  My father did the same thing to me but, really, she probably didn't fear for her life.  Falling and getting hurt, yeah, but not for her life.  The first time skydiving is a bit closer.  I could be convinced to do that too if I trusted the guy packing the chute but, barely.  Bungee cord, though, no way.  Not worth the risk to me.

But I get what you are saying.  All I am saying is don't minimize people's moments of courage by one-upping them.  First, it misses the point.  Second, it isn't necessary or constructive.  Here is a hypothetical.  You guys are getting up there.  You could very well find yourself going in for a difficult and risky surgery.  Now, I can tell you that most doctors, when they were aspiring doctors, feared killing a patient.  It doesn't fit your qualifications for courage because their patient's life is in danger, not theirs.  But their ego, confidence, career, livelihood and conscience are very much at risk. 

So, there you are, on the table.  You are about to get anesthesia.  But right before that, the nurse turns to the doctor and says she admires his courage and he is brave to do what he is about to do.  Are you going to scream, "You clearly have zero concept of what it means to go into harm's way.  Until you've been there and come out the other end, you DON'T KNOW."  If this ever becomes reality and that thought jumps into your head, don't say it.  It won't help that doctor perform at his best.

Let people have their wins.  Your life might depend on it.  That doctor, God willing, could be my kid some day.  There is a school in Atlanta that he may very well apply to.  Then, maybe, residency.  If that happens, and Clyde ends up there, I will tell my kid to look after him...after warning him. ;-)

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:56 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

No, I don't have it figured out.  That is why I asked.

If you had answered one way, it would have made sense and we move on.

But your answer proves you are a bit more complex...  not an Ideologue.  Which is a good thing in my mind.  Makes for good discussion.   But until you truly face death as a choice, no other concepts are the same.   Once you have and come out the other side, it is very freeing.  And neither I, nor Clyde (nor Luke) will ever be able to adequately explain that.  I don't think we can ever equivalate it to anything "normal".  And yet, it is understood implicitly by each other.

No one cast aspersions on those who went up.   We just said based on our background, our training.  Nope.  No back-out plan, no divert, no A/SR... not going.   So, brave or foolish?   time will tell.  Lets hope it's the former.

Another thing missing is desire.  If you really want to fly, astronaut is not a good choice.   Clyde called today...  As a military pilot you could fly twice a day... five times a week... depending on the situation and need.   As an astronaut, the lucky ride a rocket maybe 5 times in 15 years.  Big buzz, hell yeah...  just not enough of it.  Yes, those who are pilots still get to fly to stay proficient, but those who aren't wait to get on a list, sometimes years.

Why did we end up in this rabbit hole?  Because "someone" asked if Clyde would go.   He answered, I agreed.

And yeah, I did push my daughter in "harm's way" to conquer her fears.  Most notably making her go up on the roof with me to retrieve her basketball when she had a fear of heights.   She still has the fear.  But she knows it's just a fear.  She's been skydiving. 

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 01:34:02 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, you got it all figured out.  Neither of you fly boys have any idea what my background is, my political ideology or what I can or can't do.  But you love to make assumptions almost as much as you like to live in the past.  I guess, if I could survive a "cat launch" I would be allowed into the fraternity.  After all, it seems to come up a lot.  Is it more scary than being launched on a rocket?  Because I would do it in a heartbeat if one of you can afford to send me.

Tell me, what exactly were you saying and why was it relevant to the original discussion?  Why do you guys need to bring everything back to flying and almost dieing doing so?  We get it.  That was your path.  Thank God the world only works if not everyone has to be a pilot in a war.

Question, did you guys put your children in "harms way" to teach them about true courage?  If so, what did you do to them?  Throw them off a boat into the ocean to teach them how to swim? Push them off a bridge while attached to only a bungee cord?  Have them crawl on their stomachs while you shot bullets over their heads?  Launch them off an aircraft carrier?  You boys do realize that most people are never a part of a team that faces death and not every fear is a fear of death, right?  The concepts are the same even if the risks and rewards are different in form and intensity.

For the record, I saw four regular people allow themselves to be launched into orbit yesterday.  You two would probably have cast aspersions at three of them, minimum, a year ago regarding their ability to survive being in harms way.  Maybe you would have given the little cancer survivor a break.  Yet, here they are, doing something that both of you said you wouldn't do.  I think Clyde should do it.  He would have one up on Chuck Yeager.

You know what is worse than not knowing what it is like being in harms way?  Assuming that you know everything about a person.  YOU have no idea what another person has been through or what they are capable of.

Lastly, I love that you think I am a liberal.  My wife and kids would laugh their asses off at that.  But I love it because it means I am not rigid and one dimensional.  I am quite conservative but I will deviate from the ideological norm when it makes sense to.  Us soft types like philosophy.  I will leave you with something from Socrates.  "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 1:15 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Nope, didn't say that...

Never have said that.

Never would say that.

Just part of a team that put their lives in harm's way.

Until you've been there and come out the other end, you DON'T KNOW.

Your legs must get tired jumping to all these (false) conclusions.

Liberal?

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 10:01:57 AM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Ah yes, only pilots are courageous.  Astronauts are just stupid.  And anyone that doesn't risk their life is living a life without meaning.  I forgot....

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 12:54 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

You clearly have zero concept of what it means to "Go in Harm's Way".

Those aren't even sports... according to Hemmingway. (has to do with the etymology of sport)

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:22:40 AM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

That may be on a wall at a base but it is wrong.  Courage is knowing the risks and consequences but doing it anyway because you believe the rewards are worth it.  Fearless is being too stupid to understand the risks and consequences, nevermind being able to do a risk/reward analysis.  Reckless is knowing the risks and consequences but doing it always, even if it isn't justified by the rewards.

You don't need to be a fighter pilot to see all three.  Just play a team sport at the high school or college level.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:07 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Help me out here, Clyde…. Is it Brooks AFB where the centrifuge is?

My first time there I noticed a sign as you entered the chamber to the centrifuge.  It read:  

Courage can be defined as:

The absence of FEAR

Or

The presence of STUPIDITY

Preparation separates the two

Actually, you have quite a bit of control at Mach 2.   There is an abundance of air flow on the control surfaces.  It just takes a light hand.   Even a Mach 3 ejection is survivable- Bill Weaver.   

A simple depressurization in space is fatal.  Those suits they are wearing have no ELS provisions.  (unlike Apollo)

The whiz kids are damn good.  Those landings amaze me, wish they could fix the video…

On Sep 16, 2021, at 4:40 AM, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:



Yes, that is true and it is why it takes a special person to be willing to take that risk.  The first time I saw a Mercury capsule up close I was amazed.  It takes some major balls to be shot into space in that corrugated tin can!  

Ultimately, a couple of things are true.  First, we all die and our lives are but a snap of the fingers, cosmically speaking.  Second, control is an illusion.  How much control does a pilot really have at Mach 2?  You are just as much at the mercy of the engineers that designed the machine as these people are.  The emergency abort on Dragon is probably safer than ejecting at Mach 2.  Remember, this is the team that figured out how to land a rocket on a floating helicopter pad in the ocean.  Infallible?  No.  But pretty damn good!

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 12:03 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

The Crew Dragon and the Cargo Dragon avionics are very similar.  Crew Dragon does offer limited ability to override some automated functions via a touch screen with what they call "Manual Interfaces"... but nothing like real reaction controls... Behnkin and Douglas did test these Manual Interfaces. But this crew is pure civilian.  Should they get into a Gemini 8 type situation and they have no pilot controls and no Armstrong...  They're screwed.

Automation is a wonderful thing.  When it works.

All those lines of code are written by people and we are fallible.

You can only correct what you know, not what you don't.

At 17,000+ MPH things go wrong quickly.

Call a Mayday...  no one is coming.

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 06:32:46 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I believe they can take control if desired.  The first crew tested manual control.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 9:06 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Agreed.

Also, no longer under crew control.

What was it the original 7 fought for.... control

otherwise, they were just "Spam in a Can"

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 06:03:26 PM PDT, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

No way

There is no backup in space no alternate either!

Clyde Romero

If you have no enemies

You have no character ! 

Scars are tattoos with better stories!

When you're out of F-4's you're out of fighters!

On Sep 15, 2021, at 8:57 PM, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:



Was watching the civilian SpaceX launch and was wondering if Clyde would go if possible.  What say you Clyde?  You could be the pilot.

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