Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Civilian Astronaut

[Rick Moseley (ramosel]

You still don't get it.  But, you don't need to. We'll leave it at that.   Apples and Bungee cords.

My daughter was hysterical, and not in the funny sense.  She was afraid of dying if she slipped off.

Having lost her mom to an aneurysm, death was/is very real to her.  She had to go 10ft from the ladder to the edge of the roof where the ball was behind the backboard.  Took her over an hour, last 5 feet was on her butt an inch at a time.   Hyperventilating, crying, hiccuping...  I think she was getting dehydrated.   All through dinner though, she had a grin from ear to ear.   And she was more careful about wild shots with the basketball.

FWIW:  always pack your own chute.  They'll teach you.   It give you peace of mind.  If something does go wrong, you've only yourself to blame.  It save the poor kid packing chutes from second-guessing himself for life over your death.

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 04:46:11 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

OK, this is better.  My father did the same thing to me but, really, she probably didn't fear for her life.  Falling and getting hurt, yeah, but not for her life.  The first time skydiving is a bit closer.  I could be convinced to do that too if I trusted the guy packing the chute but, barely.  Bungee cord, though, no way.  Not worth the risk to me.

But I get what you are saying.  All I am saying is don't minimize people's moments of courage by one-upping them.  First, it misses the point.  Second, it isn't necessary or constructive.  Here is a hypothetical.  You guys are getting up there.  You could very well find yourself going in for a difficult and risky surgery.  Now, I can tell you that most doctors, when they were aspiring doctors, feared killing a patient.  It doesn't fit your qualifications for courage because their patient's life is in danger, not theirs.  But their ego, confidence, career, livelihood and conscience are very much at risk. 

So, there you are, on the table.  You are about to get anesthesia.  But right before that, the nurse turns to the doctor and says she admires his courage and he is brave to do what he is about to do.  Are you going to scream, "You clearly have zero concept of what it means to go into harm's way.  Until you've been there and come out the other end, you DON'T KNOW."  If this ever becomes reality and that thought jumps into your head, don't say it.  It won't help that doctor perform at his best.

Let people have their wins.  Your life might depend on it.  That doctor, God willing, could be my kid some day.  There is a school in Atlanta that he may very well apply to.  Then, maybe, residency.  If that happens, and Clyde ends up there, I will tell my kid to look after him...after warning him. ;-)

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:56 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

No, I don't have it figured out.  That is why I asked.

If you had answered one way, it would have made sense and we move on.

But your answer proves you are a bit more complex...  not an Ideologue.  Which is a good thing in my mind.  Makes for good discussion.   But until you truly face death as a choice, no other concepts are the same.   Once you have and come out the other side, it is very freeing.  And neither I, nor Clyde (nor Luke) will ever be able to adequately explain that.  I don't think we can ever equivalate it to anything "normal".  And yet, it is understood implicitly by each other.

No one cast aspersions on those who went up.   We just said based on our background, our training.  Nope.  No back-out plan, no divert, no A/SR... not going.   So, brave or foolish?   time will tell.  Lets hope it's the former.

Another thing missing is desire.  If you really want to fly, astronaut is not a good choice.   Clyde called today...  As a military pilot you could fly twice a day... five times a week... depending on the situation and need.   As an astronaut, the lucky ride a rocket maybe 5 times in 15 years.  Big buzz, hell yeah...  just not enough of it.  Yes, those who are pilots still get to fly to stay proficient, but those who aren't wait to get on a list, sometimes years.

Why did we end up in this rabbit hole?  Because "someone" asked if Clyde would go.   He answered, I agreed.

And yeah, I did push my daughter in "harm's way" to conquer her fears.  Most notably making her go up on the roof with me to retrieve her basketball when she had a fear of heights.   She still has the fear.  But she knows it's just a fear.  She's been skydiving. 

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 01:34:02 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, you got it all figured out.  Neither of you fly boys have any idea what my background is, my political ideology or what I can or can't do.  But you love to make assumptions almost as much as you like to live in the past.  I guess, if I could survive a "cat launch" I would be allowed into the fraternity.  After all, it seems to come up a lot.  Is it more scary than being launched on a rocket?  Because I would do it in a heartbeat if one of you can afford to send me.

Tell me, what exactly were you saying and why was it relevant to the original discussion?  Why do you guys need to bring everything back to flying and almost dieing doing so?  We get it.  That was your path.  Thank God the world only works if not everyone has to be a pilot in a war.

Question, did you guys put your children in "harms way" to teach them about true courage?  If so, what did you do to them?  Throw them off a boat into the ocean to teach them how to swim? Push them off a bridge while attached to only a bungee cord?  Have them crawl on their stomachs while you shot bullets over their heads?  Launch them off an aircraft carrier?  You boys do realize that most people are never a part of a team that faces death and not every fear is a fear of death, right?  The concepts are the same even if the risks and rewards are different in form and intensity.

For the record, I saw four regular people allow themselves to be launched into orbit yesterday.  You two would probably have cast aspersions at three of them, minimum, a year ago regarding their ability to survive being in harms way.  Maybe you would have given the little cancer survivor a break.  Yet, here they are, doing something that both of you said you wouldn't do.  I think Clyde should do it.  He would have one up on Chuck Yeager.

You know what is worse than not knowing what it is like being in harms way?  Assuming that you know everything about a person.  YOU have no idea what another person has been through or what they are capable of.

Lastly, I love that you think I am a liberal.  My wife and kids would laugh their asses off at that.  But I love it because it means I am not rigid and one dimensional.  I am quite conservative but I will deviate from the ideological norm when it makes sense to.  Us soft types like philosophy.  I will leave you with something from Socrates.  "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 1:15 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Nope, didn't say that...

Never have said that.

Never would say that.

Just part of a team that put their lives in harm's way.

Until you've been there and come out the other end, you DON'T KNOW.

Your legs must get tired jumping to all these (false) conclusions.

Liberal?

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 10:01:57 AM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Ah yes, only pilots are courageous.  Astronauts are just stupid.  And anyone that doesn't risk their life is living a life without meaning.  I forgot....

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 12:54 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

You clearly have zero concept of what it means to "Go in Harm's Way".

Those aren't even sports... according to Hemmingway. (has to do with the etymology of sport)

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:22:40 AM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

That may be on a wall at a base but it is wrong.  Courage is knowing the risks and consequences but doing it anyway because you believe the rewards are worth it.  Fearless is being too stupid to understand the risks and consequences, nevermind being able to do a risk/reward analysis.  Reckless is knowing the risks and consequences but doing it always, even if it isn't justified by the rewards.

You don't need to be a fighter pilot to see all three.  Just play a team sport at the high school or college level.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 10:07 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Help me out here, Clyde…. Is it Brooks AFB where the centrifuge is?

My first time there I noticed a sign as you entered the chamber to the centrifuge.  It read:  

Courage can be defined as:

The absence of FEAR

Or

The presence of STUPIDITY

Preparation separates the two

Actually, you have quite a bit of control at Mach 2.   There is an abundance of air flow on the control surfaces.  It just takes a light hand.   Even a Mach 3 ejection is survivable- Bill Weaver.   

A simple depressurization in space is fatal.  Those suits they are wearing have no ELS provisions.  (unlike Apollo)

The whiz kids are damn good.  Those landings amaze me, wish they could fix the video…

On Sep 16, 2021, at 4:40 AM, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:



Yes, that is true and it is why it takes a special person to be willing to take that risk.  The first time I saw a Mercury capsule up close I was amazed.  It takes some major balls to be shot into space in that corrugated tin can!  

Ultimately, a couple of things are true.  First, we all die and our lives are but a snap of the fingers, cosmically speaking.  Second, control is an illusion.  How much control does a pilot really have at Mach 2?  You are just as much at the mercy of the engineers that designed the machine as these people are.  The emergency abort on Dragon is probably safer than ejecting at Mach 2.  Remember, this is the team that figured out how to land a rocket on a floating helicopter pad in the ocean.  Infallible?  No.  But pretty damn good!

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 12:03 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

The Crew Dragon and the Cargo Dragon avionics are very similar.  Crew Dragon does offer limited ability to override some automated functions via a touch screen with what they call "Manual Interfaces"... but nothing like real reaction controls... Behnkin and Douglas did test these Manual Interfaces. But this crew is pure civilian.  Should they get into a Gemini 8 type situation and they have no pilot controls and no Armstrong...  They're screwed.

Automation is a wonderful thing.  When it works.

All those lines of code are written by people and we are fallible.

You can only correct what you know, not what you don't.

At 17,000+ MPH things go wrong quickly.

Call a Mayday...  no one is coming.

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 06:32:46 PM PDT, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I believe they can take control if desired.  The first crew tested manual control.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 9:06 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Agreed.

Also, no longer under crew control.

What was it the original 7 fought for.... control

otherwise, they were just "Spam in a Can"

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 06:03:26 PM PDT, Clarence Romero Jr. <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

No way

There is no backup in space no alternate either!

Clyde Romero

If you have no enemies

You have no character ! 

Scars are tattoos with better stories!

When you're out of F-4's you're out of fighters!

On Sep 15, 2021, at 8:57 PM, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:



Was watching the civilian SpaceX launch and was wondering if Clyde would go if possible.  What say you Clyde?  You could be the pilot.

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