| Rob
I assume you mean build nos rather than chassis nos which are of course even.
As far as I caan make out build nos seem to have no relelvance to each other.
Francis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert W. Garven Jr." <rgarven [at] gmail.com>
To: "francis newman" <francis.newman [at] fntn.co.uk>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 11:01:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Classiche certification. (Jeff Kennedy)
My euro GT4 doesn’t have the original engine in. It looks like it was swapped out in Italy before imported to the United States. I talked to Marcel Massini about trying to find what happened to the original engine, but he said the records would be hard to come by, meaning $$$$$. The engine in the car is a very early one, so I’m assuming it was supplied to the dealership in Italy by Ferrari. It has some different features than the one in my 74 even though the cars are consecutive chassis numbers. 409 & 410. I’m assuming Ferrari made a few extra engines for replacement in cars?
Brian was working for Al the guy in Florida that restored this car but I’m pretty sure no one knew it was not the original engine until I contacted Marcel. It was another color I think blue, it was owned by a chef in italy. He must’ve been a very good chef or he would’ve been driving a 208. ha
Rob
Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2022, at 6:49 AM, Jeff Kennedy <jkennedy.design [at] gmail.com> wrote:
George,
I do believe there is validity in these philosophical questions since they make the reasoning for what answers should be and why first stance may have holes in the logic.
Ferraris can be rabbit holes sometimes because consistency was not always their manufacturing standard. Even in the 1980s a friend of mine's father would be asked by Sergio Pininfarina if he wanted any special changes when he ordered his cars. Gerarld Rousch when he was with FAF would document each of the new Ferraris when they arrived to catch differences.
I'm told that at NCRS judging if someone has a car with a unique build feature there is a large gathering to study the item and document it for the future. And, that is with a true production build system.
Further on Ferrari, how does one potentially deal with those cars that when new/near new went to the factory for servicing? Is it incorrect for the car to have gotten an update by them? By the same logic, if it is OK for that car to have that update, should that not be OK for the same update to be incorporated by someone else?
Hi Jeff,
Thanks again. The "behind the scenes" insight is interesting. I do agree with all you've said here, with the possible exception of racing livery. I do see your point, but also like the "as-raced" look. Especially for championship-winning cars, livery as
they were when championships were secured.
WRT my Dad's old car - Dad may not care for the as-restored colors, but I find them very elegant. I think they make the shape of the car (which, let's be honest, is somewhat of an acquired taste) even better looking. I guess the question would be "who did
the repaint?" If it was done at the factory prior to being sent to Chinetti (my Dad's belief), it seems that this would "color" (pardon the pun) the discussion somewhat. But then, does the discussion change if the repaint was done at the factory, but at
Chinetti's request?
Of course, none of this really makes much of a difference, but it is somewhat of an interesting philosophical discussion.
gp
p.s - my (Dad's) old XK-120 was painted (when Dad restored it in the 80's and when I had to do a cosmetic refurb following house fire) a "nearly" period-correct Jaguar color. In all the years of JCNA concours shows in both Dad's ownership and mine, no one
has ever questioned it! Hahahaha....
Ah, the question of color. About 5 years ago I had a conversation on color with a board member of the IAC/PFA. I would say that there is/was a feeling that original color would be preferred. But, he then followed up with why they can't actually
impose that for the older Ferrari - the factory records cannot be fully relied upon for the colors. So, what if they do a point deduction for incorrect color (according to the records the judges have) but the owner is claiming that is the original delivery
color. Maybe the disparity is between what Ferrari says and what Pf records say - what would one do?
The result of this argument (not that I am in agreement) is that as long as the color was a correct choice for that time (interior and exterior) then it judged as OK. I don't know if the experts can determine when the records became believable (308s?)
but my vote would be that from that point on the colors need to match the records.
As for your old Europa, I saw it at the 2013 FCA Annual Meet in Elkhart Lake. I loved it in the colors that Heinrich restored it to. As for the repaint by Chinetti, maybe he thought that the original colors were too subtle, or he had already lined up
a buyer, but a color change was needed to close the deal. In this case I would be inclined to say that the correct color is what it left Maranello in.
Continuing on color, I am one of the people that is not a fan of the race cars being restored in the racing livery. They were not built with all the roundels and sponsor decals. I want to see the original shape. That makes me an outlier.
Jeff - thanks very much for that clarification. From my Dad's correspondence with the Swiss restorer, we understood that engine 0313 was in another car, and a swap had been planned, but never occurred - hence engine
0331 still being in car 0313. Guess that plan changed.....
But it reminds me of another philosophical question, still related to Classiche, where my Dad disagreed with the restorer - what is "original"? The body (by Vignale) had originally been painted in the colors it now wears. However, when first
sold by Ferrari, it had been repainted red w/ black roof. Presumably, Chinetti needed a car for the 54 NY show, and this car - a "Europa" ("EU" in the chassis number), never really intended for the American market? - was quickly repainted red and sent over
(somewhere I think I have photos from Dad where some red overspray is visible under a fender well - would have to find them again....). So again, what's "original"? The color that the subcontractor painted the body, or the color that was on the car when
first sold by Ferrari? My Dad argues that the Vignale colors are merely primer for the Ferrari-original colors of red/black.
FWIW, YMMV, yadda yadda.....
gp
0313 EU - It has a Classiche replacement motor. According to Marcel it is stamped with a Classiche symbol, not 0313. 99 points at Pebble Beach; 1 point deduction for the replacement motor.
Classiche has flaws and with some race cars there can easily be issues. From years back I had a conversation with Gerald Roush about originality and how to apply it to a privateer car raced in period. It goes that a factory car got upgrades during the
race season. Those would be completely OK because they were performed by the factory. But what about the privateer that, to stay competitive, installs those same upgrades? Is that car somehow less correct because its installation were not done by the factory
mechanics?
At a point relatively early on in Classiche's operation they did create alternatives to the Red Book. This allows the certification of the Breadvan. I do not believe any of us would want to see that converted back to its original SWB configuration
It still view it as a travesty that the Peter Collins 250 Spider was converted back to drum brakes from it historically significant Dunlop disc brakes for the sake of "originality".
I'm not a big fan of Classiche, though I do understand the overarching philosophy which led to its creation.
But here's a few of my own thoughts and observations.
A decade or so back, I was chatting with the owner of a vintage Ferrari race car. From his words and attitudes, he was also clearly not a fan - AT ALL. (nudge nudge wink wink) They had installed an improved oil tank for the engine's dry-sump system which
was outwardly identical to the original, but internally vastly improved in (iirc) baffling, pickup and return, etc. But despite the outward appearances, Classiche refused certification So, as Jeff mentioned below, the original was reinstalled, cert received,
and then the improved version put back in the car. This was, I believe, prior to annual re-certs. I wonder now where that car is and if that "new and improved" tank is still in the car.
And with my own experiences racing with FoW... The 360GTs we raced on '02 and '03 were changed over time, as all race cars are. At one point, the '02 championship car wore a Classiche sticker on its side. I can't help but wonder
which configuration received the Classiche cert (assuming it was certified at all)??
Finally, the car my Dad owned back in the 50's - 250 Europa s/n 0313EU. In the ~2010-2013 time frame, it was beautifully restored in Switzerland and received the Classiche red book. But! Not with the original (stamped "0313") engine - with engine 0331.
So I'm guessing that all that is needed is engine of the same type, vice the exact engine it came with from the factory when new. But that still seems like a bit of a conflict in my mind.
Why would 0313 be certified with the non-original engine, but the race car could not be certified with a non-original oil tank, even if outwardly identical? I guess this is partly why the whole program became so controversial.
But, as Erik stated elsewhere, what do I know????
gp
From: Jeff Kennedy < jkennedy.design [at] gmail.com>
To: "Clarence Romero Jr." < clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com>
Cc: The FerrariList < ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Classiche certification.
Going back to the original question about Classiche Certification:
In the beginning of the Classiche program there were some highly qualified
outside experts involved. These included Jess Pourret and Keith Bluemel.
They had full access to the historic records at the factory. As time went
on the certification became an in-house proposition.
Now, one should go back enough in the Ferrari world to remember times of
questionable representations of the cars. Histories being ascribed to
incorrect cars, restamped engines, components represented as correct that
were not. Without getting into any names, let's just say that there were
knowledgeable people that found it in their financial interest to make
and/or perpetuate some of these falsehoods. Plus, one should be aware of
the shenanigans that the factory itself played with renumbering chassis
numbers and such, especially in the 1950s.
So, there can be a legitimate proposition that there should be a way for
correctness to be verified using actual factory records. Yes, there have
been some questionable certifications they did. One can also see some
legitimacy to the re-inspection (maybe not annual) to avoid having parts
swapped to get a red book that are removed as soon as the book is in their
possession. Especially if the car is then for sale representing itself in
a state that it no longer is in.
Has Classiche Certification (as opposed to the Classiche Restoration by the
factory) turned into a profit center? Yes.
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