Re: Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters
From: LS (lashdeepyahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:21:06 -0800 (PST)
Jeff, a local buddy rents out Summit, VIR, etc. for the day to test his Grand 
Am Cup 911 and we turn it into a private event. No run groups, no instructors, 
no restrictions...512BB LMs share the track with diesel snowblowers and BMX 
bikes. Since only 6-8 cars are allowed, common sense, friendship and care 
dictate the safety level. Track time is unlimited between 9am and 6pm. 

Luckily, most of the guys there are ex-pros and give us some great instruction 
when we need it. The guy who rode with me was a Trans Am driver and has run a 
sub 60 second lap in an LM spec Porsche 962. 

With some of the structured track days, I always wondered how much help an 
Acura Integra driver could be instructing in a Mustang?

It ends up being a great time for all.

LS



----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Greenfield <coyote [at] acme-ltd.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:04:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Lash - 

Before you do something like this, I would check with the car clubs that you
would be running with to be sure that they will allow you run an open wheel
unmuffled car.

Some tracks have sound restrictions for club events, and some clubs may not
like the idea of an open wheel car running with closed wheel street cars.

Running in VSCCA or SCCA is another entirely different can of worms.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: LS [mailto:lashdeep [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:50 PM
To: Jeff Greenfield
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters

I wasn't even considering a race series but more of a track day toy to goof
off with. I place an equaly importance on history of a car, so I would
extract a lot of my enjoyment knowing that I was preserving something
notable. You don't seem to get that with the modern cars. There's a Brian
Redman Chevron Atlantic car for sale currently which I think would be
interesting.

Also, a March F5000 car which would be deadly but interesting...

LS

----- Original Message ----
From: "f2kracer [at] aol.com" <f2kracer [at] aol.com>
To: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:29:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Well, it really depends upon the car, and the Vintage group with which you
plan to run (the various groups' regs and classes vary somewhat). A more
modern Lights or Atlantic car will certainly be quicker than a Formula
Junior, perhaps safer. Again, check with the group with which you plan to
run to make sure a given car you're considering is actually eligible for
their races. The more modern Lights'/Atlantics' parts, being newer, may be
more readily available, but overall the maintenance costs will likely be
higher than a Junior. The space-frame Juniors like my Lotus 20, or any of
it's contemporaries (Lotus 22, Coopers, Brabhams, etc.) are fairly stout,
comparable to any modern space-frame cars, and space-frames are more
readily/easily repairable than modern monococques. Some vintage groups run
classes for old Formula Vees, and some of those are a little spidery; a
friend of mine damaged himself pretty severely in one not long ago. And of
course if you choose an old enough
Atlantic/F2/FB car, it may be a space frame too!

Vintage events are wonderful fun to watch, and I am sure are also great fun
as a participant. I guess if I were picking out a vintage car, I'd be
debating between a Junior and an Atlantic like my B17, just because I'm so
familiar with them (and the emotional ties).

Tom Pattison
f2kracer [at] aol.com
f2kracer [at] hotmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
To: f2kracer [at] aol.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Tom, what is your take on vintage race cars in general? I'm trying to
convince a few buddies to chip in for an old restored single seater. They
agree that while it would be fun, they're leary of having only a couple of
old lawn chair quality frame tubes and 2 mils of fiberglass saving our
ability to walk in the future.

One of the guys was an ex IMSA GTP and SCCA Trans Am driver. He says that a
modern Indy Lights or Formula Atlantic would provide much more speed and
safety at the expense of fun and coolness.

Sounds like the argument for a downdraft Countach vs. a Murcielago??

Thanks,
LS






----- Original Message ----
From: "f2kracer [at] aol.com" <f2kracer [at] aol.com>
To: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2007 2:07:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


The Hewland FT200 (and the MK8 in the F2000 car) and all their clones such
as the Websters, are an absolute joy to work with. They are very strong, and
NEARLY unbreakable (if you work at it hard enough, you can break anything!).
There are no synchros, it's a crash box; there are dog rings (which absorb
most of the abuse of shifting without the clutch) which must be periodically
replaced, but they're relatively cheap. As far as maintenance and altering
gear ratios, nothing to it. It almost takes longer to drain and refill the
box than it does to pull the tail pieces off (very few bolts), pull the gear
stacks, and reshuffle them. You can change any/all individual gears in just
a few minutes. There is quite an extensive list of available ratios; you
never change the final drive, just tailor the individual ratios to the track
you're running. I never wore out or broke any part of the Hewland boxes
except the dog rings, and they were meant to wear.

I ran/run all my SCCA cars on high-octane Racing gas (expensive!). No
oxygen-bearing additives are allowed in SCCA, gasoline only. In the earlier
days (when I started), the stipulation was "pump gas only", back in the days
when you could buy Sunoco 260 at your friendly local stations. There were no
synthetic oils when I started either, but Castrol "bean oil" was a big
favorite with many folks, and it did have a very distinctive (and pleasant)
exhaust aroma.

That incident with the clutch exploding in th Lotus was back before I
started using lightweight, metal racing clutches like the Tilton; it had a
beefed up standard clutch and pressure plate. I was in top gear on the front
straight at Grattan, approaching Turn 1, but not yet into the breaking zone
so at top speed (130ish). I heard a bang and the car stopped running, and I
coasted off onto the shoulder, expecting to look in the engine bay and find
a connecting rod or two on display out the side of the block. Instead, I
found that the clutch had disintegrated and destroyed the special aluminum
bellhousing (fortunately I had spares), cut several frame tubes, and clipped
the tops off two of the spark plugs. Whoops. 

Tom Pattison
f2kracer [at] aol.com
f2kracer [at] hotmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
To: f2kracer [at] aol.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


This was the best post on FList since its comeback...BRAVO...more
please....PLEASE!

How was the Hewland box? Did you find it durable and if not, easy to
service/repair?

Also, regarding the Cos-Ford 1600, what fuel did you run?

Thanks,
LS


----- Original Message ----
From: "f2kracer [at] aol.com" <f2kracer [at] aol.com>
To: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2007 9:18:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Oh, my......I'll have to try to dig the pictures out of storage (except for
a few 8X10s of the Lotus which are here......somewhere). 
Okay, you asked for it, don't complain if I rattle on: 

I bought the Lotus 20 in early (March) 1971; that was the year of my 21st
birthday (April), and 21 was the magic age for an SCCA license then. The
Lotus was originally a Formula Junior car (1962 model, space frame, with a
4-speed Renault transaxle), which had had the 1000 cc Junior engine replaced
with an 1100 cc Cosworth MAE (105E/109E Ford) for SCCA Formula C. The unique
thing about the Lotuses (Loti?) was that they had circumvented the original
FJr rule which required an engine and transmission from a sedan...nowhere
did it say they had to both come from the SAME sedan, so Chapman used the
Ford engines with a modified Renault or Volkswagen (predecessor to the
Hewland) transaxle. Brabhams, Coopers, etc. quickly followed suit. 

The Lotus had passed through ownership and use by three other Western
Michigan Region members before me, and it came in boxes......many boxes. I
got the (pieces of) car, engine, and a tilt-bed open trailer for the grand
sum of $1,000.00. I was able to con two of the former crew for the car into
helping me; they became two of my closest friends, to this very day. It took
us most of the year to rebuild the car, but we had it completed in time to
run a local hillclimb (dumb!) in late October where I succeeded, with much
effort, in (lightly) hitting a tree. Learned to do fiberglass work that
Winter. The following Spring, when the Driver's School came to our local
track (Grattan), I ran most of it until I fried the engine (Cosworth MAE).
Tried again in the Fall.......same result. Painful, but I was learning.
Luckily, MAE parts were plentiful and relatively inexpensive. The following
year I successfully completed my schools at Grattan and Mid-Ohio, and
started 10 years of racing
the Lotus in SCCA at Grattan, Waterford, Mid-Ohio, Nelsons Ledges,
Indianapolis Raceway Park, Blackhawk Farms, and Road America. When I bought
the 20 it came with the original narrow Lotus mags, 15-inch 6-bolt rears and
13-inch 4-bolt fronts. I quickly replaced those with much wider contemporary
13-inch wheels; never did get any wings on it, nor complete the Hewland
conversion, though. I had many memorable experiences racing the Lotus,
ranging from blowing a clutch at Grattan which nearly sawed the car in half
(and nearly nailed the back of my head with shrapnel), to hitting a bird
(with my forehead!) at about 130 mph heading into Canada Corner at Road
America. When I finally sold the car, it was for the princely sum of
$5,000.00 and I thought I had made the deal of the century (LOL!);
unfortunately within 10 years, 20s as original as mine were going for
$50k+.....oh, well. It went to an American buyer who was residing then in
Britain, but I think it's in California now as
I saw some pictures a few years ago in one of the Vintage Racing mags which
looked very much like my car and the driver's first name was a match for my
buyer. (Unless the car has since been rebodied with a completely
original-style upper body, my car is recognizable by a small air scoop just
ahead of the leading edge of the windscreen).

At the time several of my friends had gotten into Formula B (Formula
Atlantic) cars, and I was ready after 10 years with the Lotus for something
quicker so I started looking for one to spend my money on. I took the 5
grand in my sweaty palms and rushed off to Virginia, where I bought the B17.
I think it may have originally been an F2 chassis, but it did appear to have
been built for the American market, because the gear change lever was on the
right. It was fitted with the current most common Formula B (Formula
Atlantic) engine, the Cosworth-Ford 1600, wider wheels than the originals
(which were gone), and slicks.....big ones!. It had been completely rebodied
to what was then a more contemporary style, wedgy and with lots of flat
panels, so the original cigar-shaped bodywork was long gone. Unfortunately
it was still a front radiator, but came with the side rads and all the
bodywork to make that conversion. I loved driving the car.....what a hoot!
0-100 in a little over 3
seconds, top speed around 155, it was like a Sprint Car for road courses!
Unfortunately, engine parts cost a King's ransom, and at that time (1980s),
you got to deal directly with Cosworth in Merrie Olde. This meant that you
needed to get up to call them in the wee smalls here, because you'd damn
well better catch them before they went off to the pub for lunch. After
lunch, all bets were off on what help you might get. We grafted a March 78
sports-car nose onto the Chevron, since that nose was also intended for a
front rad. We only ran the car for three seasons, after which I had to sell
it and use the money for a bigger/better new house, but it gave us a feel
for wing adjustments and tuning which was very useful a few years later when
I got into the F2000 cars. The shear power of the car was a real treat, and
of course it had an FT200 gearbox which was virtually unbreakable, but the
maintenance costs were breaking me and it had become very hard to justify
them.

I ended up selling the car as a vintage piece to a gentleman in Germany who
had been a Chevron factory driver. He completely restored it to original
specs, with an F2 engine, and has been running vintage events in Europe with
it. 


Tom Pattison
f2kracer [at] aol.com
f2kracer [at] hotmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
To: f2kracer [at] aol.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Tom, I hope you don't think you can just drop a reference to a Chevron B-17
and then not elaborate more about the car.

What do you think this is? A loosely car based forum for people to talk
about lettuce, watches, and cats??

:)

Please...tell us more about the Chevron and the Lotus...any pics??

Thanks,
LS


----- Original Message ----
From: "f2kracer [at] aol.com" <f2kracer [at] aol.com>
To: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2007 8:05:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


I don't recall an adjustment mechanism for the delay interval on any that I
had; the Smiths tach on my Lotus 20 (1962 vintage) definitely had that type
of tach, and I think my Chevron B-17 ('70ish) did also.   

Tom Pattison
f2kracer [at] aol.com
f2kracer [at] hotmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
To: f2kracer [at] aol.com; red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


That's interesting...

Is the timing interval adjustable on most of the vintage chrono tachs? It
doesn't sound so accurate real time, but if the interval could be changed it
could become relevant.

Upon studying *some* of the older British cars, I'm constantly amazed at how
much engineering those Englishman mastered. They set the standard in many
areas.

The Salisbury rear and torsion bar suspension are pretty cool. The XKE is
one of the most advanced cars of the era with regards to road manners.

Now, if they had only discovered dialectic grease...

Thanks for the reply,
LS


----- Original Message ----
From: "f2kracer [at] aol.com" <f2kracer [at] aol.com>
To: red5hilser [at] aol.com; lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com; len_ashburn [at] 
hotmail.com;
alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 4:59:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


I believe what you're referring to were known as chronometric tachs, and
that intermittent action was done to make them more readable at speed (while
racing) 

Tom Pattison
f2kracer [at] aol.com
f2kracer [at] hotmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: red5hilser [at] aol.com
To: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com; F2KRACER [at] aol.com; Staxwax [at] aol.com;
len_ashburn [at] hotmail.com; alexzanardifan [at] hotmail.com; MaxEd49 [at] 
aol.com
Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Beats me. Back in the 1950's/60's, when I used to haunt the pits at such
places as Riverside, Pomona, Paramount Ranch, and Laguna Seca, it was common
in pure race cars to see the tachs move in increments of a few hundred revs.
It was so common that I think it was SOP. Both Smiths in the British cars
and Jaeger in the Italian Ferrari's Maserati's, and OSCA's were the same. My
Jaguar XK120 and Austin-Healey 100 had mechanical Smiths which were smooth,
but they were road machines. I remember watching Carroll Shelby warm up John
Edgar's 4.5 Maserati in the pits at Pomona, and the tach jumped back and
forth a few hundred revs at a time as he 'bliped' the throttle. Had I known
this would come up 50 years later on the List ... I would have asked 'Ol
Shel' or John, who always sat in a director's chair on top of his 18 wheel
hauler to watch the races. In those days the vast majority of cars were
towed to the races using either a pick-up or panel truck. Needless to say, I
was
impressed!

Yer pal, Ferrari Bubba


-----Original Message-----
From: lashdeep [at] yahoo.com
To: red5hilser [at] aol.com
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


On older cars, I've only seen tachs that read a signal off of a
rotating/timed 
engine component. Typically, this would be a distributor or a camshaft. If
the 
tach jumps, it would have to mean a voltage problem with either the
"generator" 
on the engine or in the actual gauge itself. 

I did ask a friend who restores old Jags to add thoughts. Apparently, the
old 
XK140s used a cable that ran off of the camshaft. This cable led to the
gauge 
which contained a plastic hub that positioned the needle. He's seen these
cables 
get contaminated with oil leaking from the cam seal. This oil creates a
problem 
in the hub mechanism at the gauge and can cause those erratic tach
movements.

So, in short...who knows!?!

It would have to depend on the car and what type of tach it uses...

What car were we talking about here?

LS 

----- Original Message ----
From: Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 9:10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


Done on purpose and hard to duplicate by instrument restorers.  Perhaps the 
old smooth tachs had a tendency to fly way past the actual rpm and those 
that stuttered were closer to actual engine rpm.  Just a guess.  Built in 
damper.
DOUG

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Bennett" <pbennett [at] macnet.com>
To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:03 PM
Subject: [Ferrari] Vintage LM Race vintage tachymeters


>I noticed in many cockpit shots of the older cars, the tachymeters
> didn't increase smoothly as now, but stepped up and down in
> large rpm increments.  Like perhaps 3.0k > 3.5k > 4.0k >4.5k
>
> Any idea of why the jerkiness?
>
>
>
> Great show...18 different race start/finish and view of the
> 'control room' which I'd not seen or heard of before.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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