Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH and Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

[Jim Brown (barchetta]

So when you talk about pneumatic valve technologies are you referring to a 
split cycle engine design that divides a 4-cycle internal combustion engine?s 
individual strokes of operation into opposing cylinders ? one side for intake 
and compression, the other for power and exhaust?

LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:  Yes! Being done now...


----- Original Message ----
From: Fellippe Galletta 
To: LS 
Cc: The FerrariList 
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 1:33:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH and 
Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

Just curious...

Is it possible to get a lot of revs from a pushrod motor? Say a redline
above 7000 rpm....up to 8000 or more?

Not that its necessary, but there is an allure to a very high revving motor
just for the sound of it. :)

FG

On Dec 6, 2007 1:26 PM, LS wrote:

> DL-"I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep."
>
> LS-"I think you're missing the
> point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
> engine tech standpoint."
>
> To keep things technical, let's examine the Ford GT's 5.4 liter
> supercharged V8, one of the forced induction supercars on Dennis' list.
>
> It's extremely strong and makes about 550bhp. It has DOHC, 32 valves, 4
> camshafts overhead and a supercharger. This basic engine is also used in the
> Koenigsegg (all models despite their shady "bespoke" claim). It's fuel
> economy is not so great either.
>
> Comparing that engine with a typical pushrod V8 makes for an interesting
> demonstration (see post #37) :
>
> http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21944&highlight=teksid
>
> This image shows the Ford Modular motor, in this case a 4.6 liter sitting
> next to a pushrod V8, in this case a Ford 302. The Ford GT uses basically
> the engine on the left, PLUS a supercharger.
>
> The LS V8 is VERY similar in dimensions to the 5.0 V8. In fact, I can
> produce exact dimensions of the 302 as I have a spare at home I can measure.
> If anyone wants the exact numbers of either that or the LS V8 (showing that
> they are similar), please call me after 8pm tonight and I can measure both
> for you. 202-236-4589.
>
> Regardless, the above picture is frightening...for just one moment, put
> yourself in a car/engine builder's shoes. Assuming that both the pushrod and
> the blown OHC engine make the same power (which they can) and both rev
> comfortably to 8000rpm (which they both can)...which would you want in your
> performance oriented car?
>
> An OHC engine with 4 cams, 32 valves and a supercharger making up a bulk
> of the weight high in the engine, just underneath the hood?
>
> Or would you prefer the dramatically smaller and lighter, normally
> aspirated pushrod design? As a cherry on top (or on bottom for better weight
> distribution), the pushrod gets much better fuel economy as well thanks to
> impressive engine mgmt...
>
> >From an engineering standpoint, it's a tough point to ignore no?
>
> The SL65 comparison would be very simliar to the one above...two turbos
> add a lot of weight, heat, oil and coolant...what a mess. The M5 V10 is
> soooo huge it's scary. If you get the chance to see one outside of a car,
> you will soil your knickers. That thing has no business being in a
> performance car or parked outside a Sierra Club meeting for that matter.
>
> Is this science fiction?
>
> It might seem that way...I didn't want to believe it. Hell, one of my
> "babies" has the Ford Mod motor pictured above. But now, in Dec 2007, it
> seems like silly complication at best...especially if you like track
> performance or balanced handling...and saving fuel.
>
> In hopes of sparking the elusive technical discussion (without any car
> religion or personal preferences involved), what would be the next step in
> ultimate performance engine design?
>
> Ferrari has an amazing reputation for translating racing tech into street
> tech. They were testing an early form of paddle shifters in '78 with Gilles.
> That feature evolved and eventually changed street motoring.
>
> What is next? I'd like to see a pneumatic valvetrain discussion with pros
> and cons. Will the elimination of the valve spring and its weight high atop
> the engine more than counter act the additional weight of the pressure tank
> and hard air lines? Is this something we could see in a future V8
> Ferrarimodel?
>
> Someone, please chime in...this could be fun!
>
> LS
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dennis Liu 
> To: LS 
> Cc: The FerrariList 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 10:25:02 PM
> Subject: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up
>
> I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep. I think it
> pretty much shows his POV. Ask yourself if you really think this is
> correct.
>
> >Regarding the supercars you listed...their powertrain engineers should be
> fired. They couldn't figure out how to make that power out of n/a engine
> technology? Or lighten their vehicles? I'd love to see engine weights and
> sizes...prob not so impressive at that point. Anyone can throw a blower
> onto
> a motor. Where is the skill or technology there? I think you're missing
> the
> point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
> engine tech standpoint. And...I don't think I can type this point up
> again.
>
> ==============
>
> So... all of the powertrain engineers at Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Bentley,
> Bugatti, Audi, Jaguar, Ford, Audi, Lotus and even Chevrolet are idiots,
> and
> the guys building and selling custom V8s in their garages are geniuses?
>
> Wow.
>
> Well, that's it for me. I'm outta here....
>
> vty,
>
> --Dennis
>
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