Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH and Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

[Tom Reynolds (kjtar]

Lashdeep,
        What about what happened (I believe) to the Mercedes F1 cars running
that system that kept "running out of air"?
Tom
P.S.  Of course, not many street engined cars are going to be running at 19k
revs.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LS" <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
To: "Tom Reynolds" <kjtar [at] cox.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Well,that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH
and Ferrari Content,but no opinions added)


The pne- valve setups I've seen replace the spring with a piston/air
chamber. There is an auxiliary tank that holds the compressed air and feeds
it through hard, steel aeroquip lines. Even if you don't save that much
weight by losing the springs and associated metal valvetrain parts, you
still win by taking the weight out of the top of the motor and being able to
place it where you like.

On the tech side, you have better valve control and can run milder cams with
less overlap.

LS


----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Brown <barchetta [at] verizon.net>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 1:59:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH
and Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

So when you talk about pneumatic valve technologies are you referring to a
split cycle engine design that divides a 4-cycle internal combustion engine’
s individual strokes of operation into opposing cylinders – one side for
intake and compression, the other for power and exhaust?

LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes! Being done now...


----- Original Message ----
From: Fellippe Galletta
To: LS
Cc: The FerrariList
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 1:33:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up (with lots of TECH
and Ferrari Content, but no opinions added)

Just curious...

Is it possible to get a lot of revs from a pushrod motor? Say a redline
above 7000 rpm....up to 8000 or more?

Not that its necessary, but there is an allure to a very high revving motor
just for the sound of it. :)

FG

On Dec 6, 2007 1:26 PM, LS wrote:

> DL-"I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep."
>
> LS-"I think you're missing the
> point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
> engine tech standpoint."
>
> To keep things technical, let's examine the Ford GT's 5.4 liter
> supercharged V8, one of the forced induction supercars on Dennis' list.
>
> It's extremely strong and makes about 550bhp. It has DOHC, 32 valves, 4
> camshafts overhead and a supercharger. This basic engine is also used in
the
> Koenigsegg (all models despite their shady "bespoke" claim). It's fuel
> economy is not so great either.
>
> Comparing that engine with a typical pushrod V8 makes for an interesting
> demonstration (see post #37) :
>
> http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21944&highlight=teksid
>
> This image shows the Ford Modular motor, in this case a 4.6 liter sitting
> next to a pushrod V8, in this case a Ford 302. The Ford GT uses basically
> the engine on the left, PLUS a supercharger.
>
> The LS V8 is VERY similar in dimensions to the 5.0 V8. In fact, I can
> produce exact dimensions of the 302 as I have a spare at home I can
measure.
> If anyone wants the exact numbers of either that or the LS V8 (showing
that
> they are similar), please call me after 8pm tonight and I can measure both
> for you. 202-236-4589.
>
> Regardless, the above picture is frightening...for just one moment, put
> yourself in a car/engine builder's shoes. Assuming that both the pushrod
and
> the blown OHC engine make the same power (which they can) and both rev
> comfortably to 8000rpm (which they both can)...which would you want in
your
> performance oriented car?
>
> An OHC engine with 4 cams, 32 valves and a supercharger making up a bulk
> of the weight high in the engine, just underneath the hood?
>
> Or would you prefer the dramatically smaller and lighter, normally
> aspirated pushrod design? As a cherry on top (or on bottom for better
weight
> distribution), the pushrod gets much better fuel economy as well thanks to
> impressive engine mgmt...
>
> >From an engineering standpoint, it's a tough point to ignore no?
>
> The SL65 comparison would be very simliar to the one above...two turbos
> add a lot of weight, heat, oil and coolant...what a mess. The M5 V10 is
> soooo huge it's scary. If you get the chance to see one outside of a car,
> you will soil your knickers. That thing has no business being in a
> performance car or parked outside a Sierra Club meeting for that matter.
>
> Is this science fiction?
>
> It might seem that way...I didn't want to believe it. Hell, one of my
> "babies" has the Ford Mod motor pictured above. But now, in Dec 2007, it
> seems like silly complication at best...especially if you like track
> performance or balanced handling...and saving fuel.
>
> In hopes of sparking the elusive technical discussion (without any car
> religion or personal preferences involved), what would be the next step in
> ultimate performance engine design?
>
> Ferrari has an amazing reputation for translating racing tech into street
> tech. They were testing an early form of paddle shifters in '78 with
Gilles.
> That feature evolved and eventually changed street motoring.
>
> What is next? I'd like to see a pneumatic valvetrain discussion with pros
> and cons. Will the elimination of the valve spring and its weight high
atop
> the engine more than counter act the additional weight of the pressure
tank
> and hard air lines? Is this something we could see in a future V8
> Ferrarimodel?
>
> Someone, please chime in...this could be fun!
>
> LS
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dennis Liu
> To: LS
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 10:25:02 PM
> Subject: [Ferrari] Well, that just about sums it up
>
> I'm pretty much blown away by this statement from Lashdeep. I think it
> pretty much shows his POV. Ask yourself if you really think this is
> correct.
>
> >Regarding the supercars you listed...their powertrain engineers should be
> fired. They couldn't figure out how to make that power out of n/a engine
> technology? Or lighten their vehicles? I'd love to see engine weights and
> sizes...prob not so impressive at that point. Anyone can throw a blower
> onto
> a motor. Where is the skill or technology there? I think you're missing
> the
> point again on why these cars are not in the least bit impressive from an
> engine tech standpoint. And...I don't think I can type this point up
> again.
>
> ==============
>
> So... all of the powertrain engineers at Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Bentley,
> Bugatti, Audi, Jaguar, Ford, Audi, Lotus and even Chevrolet are idiots,
> and
> the guys building and selling custom V8s in their garages are geniuses?
>
> Wow.
>
> Well, that's it for me. I'm outta here....
>
> vty,
>
> --Dennis
>
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