| Re: All about oil???? | <– Date –> <– Thread –> |
From: LarryT (l02turner comcast.net)
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| Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:00:28 -0700 (PDT) | |
Hi Peter,
Supposedly, the 10W is the viscosity when measure at 32F or some similar number on the cold side of the thermometer - with the 50 (or whatever) measured at 210F or so -- but the reality is it's a compromise - your logical mind will tell you oil doesn't get more viscous as temp *rises* - and your mind will be right. It's not as straightforward as that (naturally) but that's basically the case - hot oil gets thinner and cold oil gets thicker.
Say you have 10W50 or 5W50 in an engine - the engine will turn over pretty easily when cold with these low "1st" numbers - but if it is compared to 5W30 or 10W30, these last 2 grades will not be as viscous at 210F as the previous pair - as advertised - and again as expected, the 2nd set will have lower oil pressure when warm/hot - again, as expected and advertised.
Now we compare all those 4 viscosities to, say 15W40 Mobil 1 like many people use (I use it in my diesel MBs and 15W50 in my 911) -- this viscosity and similar ones like the 15W50 M1, will still offer excellent low temp viscosity Vs the 5W or 10W while offering better high temperature protection.
I doubt I explained this very well - actually I'm sure I didn't. You're right, it *is* a complex subject. Again, IMO, either a 5W,10W or15W will all offer excellent cold temp protection - and it closes the range between the low & high numbers reducing the numbers of additives needed to reach those wide gaps (between the 5 and 40 for instance) - as Rick Lindsey rightly pointed out.
Basically, the 15W will help keep the high numbers's temp viscosity in the proper territory - better than the 5W - maybe that's what I should have said to begin with?.
BTW, if you would like to see the difference between regular and synthetic oil, pour some of each into a couple of cups and put them in the freezer overnight - pour them out in the morning and see which one you want circulating in your engine the next time you startup at 15F.
If you really believe a 10W40 acts like 10weight at 32f and 40weight at 210, you can do a similar comparision by freezing a small cup and then heating another small quantity - use a hot plate in the garage as it will make the kitchen smell like hot oil, which the little woman will not appreciate - and compare the way they both pour. I bet you will see the cold oil pour more slowly than the hot oil -
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pless" <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au>
To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
Supposedly, the 10W is the viscosity when measure at 32F or some similar number on the cold side of the thermometer - with the 50 (or whatever) measured at 210F or so -- but the reality is it's a compromise - your logical mind will tell you oil doesn't get more viscous as temp *rises* - and your mind will be right. It's not as straightforward as that (naturally) but that's basically the case - hot oil gets thinner and cold oil gets thicker.
Say you have 10W50 or 5W50 in an engine - the engine will turn over pretty easily when cold with these low "1st" numbers - but if it is compared to 5W30 or 10W30, these last 2 grades will not be as viscous at 210F as the previous pair - as advertised - and again as expected, the 2nd set will have lower oil pressure when warm/hot - again, as expected and advertised.
Now we compare all those 4 viscosities to, say 15W40 Mobil 1 like many people use (I use it in my diesel MBs and 15W50 in my 911) -- this viscosity and similar ones like the 15W50 M1, will still offer excellent low temp viscosity Vs the 5W or 10W while offering better high temperature protection.
I doubt I explained this very well - actually I'm sure I didn't. You're right, it *is* a complex subject. Again, IMO, either a 5W,10W or15W will all offer excellent cold temp protection - and it closes the range between the low & high numbers reducing the numbers of additives needed to reach those wide gaps (between the 5 and 40 for instance) - as Rick Lindsey rightly pointed out.
Basically, the 15W will help keep the high numbers's temp viscosity in the proper territory - better than the 5W - maybe that's what I should have said to begin with?.
BTW, if you would like to see the difference between regular and synthetic oil, pour some of each into a couple of cups and put them in the freezer overnight - pour them out in the morning and see which one you want circulating in your engine the next time you startup at 15F.
If you really believe a 10W40 acts like 10weight at 32f and 40weight at 210, you can do a similar comparision by freezing a small cup and then heating another small quantity - use a hot plate in the garage as it will make the kitchen smell like hot oil, which the little woman will not appreciate - and compare the way they both pour. I bet you will see the cold oil pour more slowly than the hot oil -
Hope this helps -
Take care -
Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pless" <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au>
To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
Larry....why go higher for the first number? I could maybe understand
sticking to a 50, but surely the lower the first number the better for cold
starts? Isn't that how it works?
It's all a bit confusing. Just like I've had to change jetting to live with
modern fuels, I wouldn't be surprised that ferrari would choose a different
oil if the 308GT4 were to be released today. The 355 requires 5W40 I
believe...subject to confirmation.
-----Original Message----- From: LarryT [mailto:l02turner [at] comcast.net] Sent: Monday, 24 March 2008 10:33 PM To: Peter Pless Cc: 'The FerrariList' Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
Hi Peter,
Do you know what the Owners Manual calls for? I looked at a O.M. for a
308QV (it's a scan - not sure what year it is for - you;re welcome to a copy
if you'd like) and it looks like it is saying to use Agip SINT 10W50 - I'm
guessing that's a Synthetic?.
I suspect you'll be fine with the 5W40 - - especially since you are
using Synthetic. Keep an eye on oil pressure and temps - especially at idle
when doing some "spirited" driving. IMHO the pressure should not drop below
3-5psi at idle and the temp should not exceed 240-250. If either of these
happened on one of my cars I'd start looking for a reason and/or a way to
cool the oil a bit - and going to 15W50 would be a way to start. No, it
doesn't cool any better by going to a higher weight but it does provide a
higher strength to keep the crank, rod and cam bearings properly lubricated.
With low viscosity oils I worry about metal to metal contact under extreme conditions.
But that's just me. ;-)
Good luck -
Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pless" <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au> To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net> Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:10 AM Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/ferrarilist%40pless.comSo now I'm confused.
Will my newly rebuilt 308 2V engine be ok with fully synthetic 5W 40?
-----Original Message----- From: LarryT [mailto:l02turner [at] comcast.net] Sent: Monday, 24 March 2008 8:51 AM To: Peter Pless Cc: 'The FerrariList' Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
Right you are. I am 100% positive the engineers who specify the oils we should use - especially in new cars - would dearly love to suggest the very low viscosity oils the Doctor believes in. And now that the CAFE standards have been raised once again there will be even more pressure to use lightweight oils.
I always find it interesting to see what the human mind can rationalize ;-)
Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Stark To: LarryT Cc: 'The FerrariList' Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
The good doctor seems to be obsessed with heat conduction and oblivious to film strength.
LarryT wrote: Hi Peter, ya know, it's hard to tell when yo;re being sarcastic sometimes. l;-)
If you are not, let me share my thoughts about the use of very low weight
oils in older vehicles:
I know Dr Haas is probably a great plastic surgeon, but I would not run 0W20 or 0W30 oil in a car more than 5 years old with more than 50k on it. Older and vehicles with more than a few miles just will not be fully protected with such low viscosity oil, IMO. The ability of the low viscosity oil to carry the weight of the crank and rods is just not as good as a heavier weight oil.
Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pless" <ferrarilist [at] pless.com.au> To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net> Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Ferrari] All about oil????
I think that's an awesome article! It's exactly what I've suspected all
this
time, and considering the source as well, I'm going to be changing the oil
in my GT4 immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: pvb308 [at] comcast.net [mailto:pvb308 [at] comcast.net] Sent: Friday, 21 March 2008 3:09 AM To: Peter Pless Cc: The FerrariList Subject: [Ferrari] All about oil????
I came across an interesting article on engine oil, from the Florida Region of the Ferrari Owners Club. Since I'm not an expert on engine oils---does anyone have any opinions on this article???? The article can be found at: www.focfloridaregion.com/ To open the article -on the left side of the page- click on "Educational Articles" --then click on "Introduction to Motor Oil".
Thanks, Jerry in Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
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- Re: All about oil????, (continued)
- Re: All about oil???? LarryT, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? Peter Pless, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? Rick Lindsay, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? cmlf1, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? LarryT, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? Michael James, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? LarryT, March 24 2008
- Must reading about oil Paul Bennett, March 24 2008
- Re: All about oil???? Rick Lindsay, March 24 2008
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