Ferrari Mailing List: Re: The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)

[LS (lashdeep]

Honestly, I don't see a problem...

Fuse block? That could be easily reproduced...and probably way better than 
original.

Replacement foglights? If you want identical, it might be tough. If you want 
something that fits and works, there are many vendors out there.

Who is going to put crappy Carello foglights into a 328 20 yrs from now? Only 
if you're going to win a concours. If that is your goal, you should be hunting 
down every possibly parted out 328 there is. Thanks to the internet and Ebay, 
doing this is way easier than it was 15 yrs ago.

Or, you could try repairing the problem with the current lamp. Melted wiring? 
Have it re-soldered. Cracked glass? Have it repaired or have someone make a new 
lens. It can be done. Worn or faded reflector? Have that piece replated.

There's a lot of ingenuity out there. If the car is rare, the creativity and 
brain damage goes up quickly.

If you're not out in the garage messin' with old heaps on a daily basis, this 
may seem like science fiction. 

LS




________________________________
From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 1:06:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re: 
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)


All true, but Benz is a high-volume production manufacturer - Ferrari, Lambo, 
Aston, etc. are not - not yet, anyway.  Benz can get-away with supporting their 
old cars because they know there are still tens-of-thousands of them out there, 
and people want to keep them running.  Until Ferrari and other exotics see such 
production quantities, their parts/support markets will remain relatively 
'small' - not exactly an attractive market for an aftermarket parts supplier to 
pick up an OEM parts vendors' slack should they decide one morning to stop 
making something - 288 GTO Fuseblocks, for instance, or 328 Fog/Turn signal 
clusters.  There are still LOTS of 328s running around, but if you lunch your 
front fog lights, you're screwed - Carello no longer exists, and the shelves 
are largely empty of replacements.  Nobody 'yet' is offering a remanufactured 
replacement that looks identical to the Carello units.....

M

--- On Thu, 12/4/08, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

From: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re: 
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:42 PM


I'm not sure what older Benz models are considered "significant"
beyond the obvious ones like the 300SLs, etc. But, they make parts for all of
them, no matter what the model.

Car collecting and restoration has become such a huge industry in the last 10
yrs...way more prolific than it was in the 1990s. The support industry is
becoming more sophisticated as a result. I have no reason to think that such a
large potential market such as 1980s/90s electronics would go untapped.

BTW-the 456 Auto is a GM trans. The "special parts" are BS and can be
made or modified.

LS




________________________________
From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 12:16:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re:
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)


Ferrari 'could' do the same thing - if there's a market for it,
involving people with VERY deep pockets (Classique comes to mind).  But
we're not talking parts fabrication for 250 GTOs or special Boano coupes
here, we're talking production cars with no historical value whatsoever. 
Until such production cars become 'rare' or 'significant',
there's not going to be a huge run-up for preservation efforts.  The dollar
values, the market-driven need, etc. all have to be 'there' for things
to happen.  Some 'new' car owners are already in a pickle - try finding
456 GT transmission parts lying on a shelf somewhere.  

'Homestyle' mechanical fab is easy, though.  I'm saying, as the
Electronics get more-and-more complex, and specialized for a particular car
brand/model, its going to be harder and harder to repair or replace it.  I
think a lot of owners won't even bother to try.  If Porsche's Tiptronic
technology could be made to 'fit' into a Ferrari to replace an obsolete
F1 Marelli component, then we're halfway there.  But there's nothing on
GM/Honda/Toyo/Benz parts shelf that could possibly be used as a substitute, let
alone be used as a starting-point for a homemade fab.  'Classic' models
like the 3-series Ferraris could always count on cross-referencing Bosch
components with VW/Benz/Volvo/Porsche parts catalogs and finding those rare
parts elsewhere under another name/part#....those days, I think, are gone.  I
attribute this to why so many cars from that era are still on the road today.

M

--- On Thu, 12/4/08, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

From: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re:
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
To: cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:48 AM


The $300k was to build an entire car from scratch with custom bodywork, wheels,
chassis, etc.

The standalone engine management is much, much, much cheaper and will be even
less so in 20 yrs.

Benz has started manufacturing all of their vintage parts with super markups
for old restorations to run the private parts suppliers out of business. 

Why wouldn't Ferrari do the same thing?

LS




________________________________
From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:52:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re:
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)


Agreed, but when it comes time to fix that F1 tranny in 20 years, I don't
think there will be many owners who will pony-up anything close to $300K to fix
or upgrade a 360 F1 to keep it going.  In another ten years, the 360 will be
lucky to maintain 20% of its original book-value.  If the value to
reverse-engineer something surpasses the total value of the car....the owner is
screwed (or needs to be REALLY in-love with the machine) .  Much of the
Tranny's electronics are made by Magnetti Marelli - they're not
well-known for keeping 'NOS' parts on the shelf forever.  

Then again, Ferrari and some of their OEM parts suppliers are probably
scratching their heads over how many of their 'old cars' they thought
would have disappeared long ago are being preserved and restored in quantities
close to original production numbers.  I know people who are fabricating small
plastic parts in their own garage for vintage Ferraris...stuff that's been
NLA for years....the Marque is enjoying a very loyal and dedicated fan base that
considers NOTHING Ferrari-related to be disposable.  Will this continue?

Hey, I hope I'm wrong....the future will be interesting!

M

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

From: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re:
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 6:46 PM


Jim, good to hear from you. Where have you been?

I believe Michael James' concern was that as the modern cars like the 360
get older, the complex electronics would make restoration or maint impossible.

When most of these cars need such a solution, they will probably be too old
(over 20 yrs in some states) to need to be emissions compliant.

The F355 will be eligible for antique tags in 6 yrs in my state! 

Not only will the E30 M3 be driven on the street legally, it will retain cats
and will pass 1989 tailpipe standards! Although, in his area, he doesn't
have to comply because the car will be exempt.

They are doing it simply as a challenge.

Regarding the motor...they were on the dyno last month with Dinan's new V10
stroker, 5.6 liters I believe. They will have 600bhp in a 2800lb E30 M3! 

He spent something like $30k for a new V10 motor just to tune and setup the
Pectel mgmt. After 1 day of dyno testing by Pectel, it was trash and they threw
the engine away. Onto engine #2...

He has $300k into this whole project is not close to being done. There is so
much custom bodywork, fabrication, and over the top detail work in the whole
build.

The next project is to redo one of the new M3s, throw away all of the
factory crap and replace with real hardware. 700bhp turbo 5.6 V10, hidden
rollcage, sequential Riccardo box, Comp dry sump-Accusump system, carbon sun
visors, fire extinguisher on the A pillar, etc.

Besides...emissions? Where's that male body spray?

LS


 


----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Conforti <lndshrk [at] xmission.com>
To: LS <lashdeep [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:43:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...was Re:
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)

At 09:00 AM 12/3/2008 -0800, LS wrote:

>A friend of mine is building an '89 E30 M3 with a 2008 BMW M5 v10 
>drivetrain and suspension. Instead of cracking the factory ECU 
>programming, he trashed it and is having Dinan assist him with a 
>standalone Pectel unit to takeover everything. It was claimed that the 
>modern V10 BMW could not run without proprietary BMW ECU control. It is a 
>ridiculous amount of work, but he is pioneering it for the BMW world. It 
>is only the beginning.

  Of course said vehicle can NEVER be operated on any public highway in 
the USA.

  (Seriously)

  The chances of getting caught are low, but if he does - I hope he's got 
incredibly
  deep pockets because it's rather expensive fighting the US EPA in court.

  This, of course, is why you DON'T "trash" the factory ECU. 
ROFLMAO.

  JC

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