Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Require Driving School? Yes or No?

[E M (pokiebaron]

Hi Rick,

Modern cars have come a long way, and can shift faster than than anyone I
know.  Throw in computers that know when to blip the throttle the engine so
as not to mess up the balance and it's a great tool that gives an edge, on
track.

With the older cars, heel and toe not only helped the gearbox make it to the
end, and smooth out gear changes, but it was as much to keep the car
balanced I feel.  Just imagine, driving really hard, going into a corner, on
the brakes, load up the contact patch of the front tires, then go for a
downshift without that heel and toe to blip up the engine.  Now you have
front tires at max grip, engine it trying to brake, plus even more of the
rear contact patch just went bye bye.  To make it more fun, if you're in an
old 930, you just spooled up the turbo too, so when you let the clutch out,
you have a bit of a jump in power to deal with too, while trying to slow.
lol.  Oh yeah, and while all this is going on, get ready to turn into a
corner.  Whooops!  Heal and toe really helps to smooth out the cars
transition from going from various different tire loads.

That's how I look at driving anyway, or the science of it.  A lot of it is
all about the contact patch.  What's the old saying, that kind of applies,
"you can have the best brakes in the world, but they won't do you much good
when you're going down the road on the roof of the car"  hee hee.

See Rick, it's all just science, you were born to be a racer. ;-)  Try to
keep the tire patch big, so you can get the power down, or use the brakes to
their fullest.  Heel and toe lets you go between those two things a bit
smoother, which allows you to go quicker.  Also allows you to crash a lot
quicker too if you over step the bounds of physics, ;-)

Old 911s are kind of known to have crap transmissons.  I know when I get it
just right, as the lever will almost fall into the next gear!  Ohhhh, what
an amazing feeling that is when it happens! :D
Ed
911SC

2009/2/14 Rick Lindsay <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>

> Morning Larry, et al.,
>
> All these beloved techniques like double clutching, heel-n-toe,
> rev-matching, etc., are learned behaviors to make up for deficiencies in the
> drive train - even if we do enjoy perfecting them.  A modern gearbox and its
> associated computer handles it all effectively and efficiently.  That being
> said, if we're talking about performance, which implies the inclusion of
> time, dropping one's car off at the dealer is also a whole lot more
> effective and efficient than rolling out the tool chest and spending all
> weekend submersed in grease.  Yet, we choose to do our own work and we
> choose to heel-n-toe.
>
> I think that we should never forget that for the majority of us, our cars
> are a hobby.  How we choose to enjoy them is part of the hobby and its our
> choice.  For me, it isn't driving - as I have said before.  It's building
> and restoring.
>
> Just thoughts for Saturday.
>
> rick
> PS: All that said about modern technology, my newest hobby car is 26 years
> old!  The oldest is 48 years old!
>
> --- On Sat, 2/14/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes or No?
> > To: "rolindsay" <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "Ferrarilist" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:07 AM
> > Hi Ed -
> >     As far as double clutching, I was taught to --
> > 1.clutch in,
> > 2. gear lever to neutral,
> > 3  clutch out,
> > 4. blip throttle,
> > 5. gear lever in,
> > 6. gear lever to next gear.
> > 7. clutch out
> >
> >     You wrote that Mansell said He [Mansell]  said,
> > "Not at all, we drive
> > 10/10ths without
> > ever giving it a thought."
> >
> >     I always thought it was a matter of what people get
> > used to.  Like
> > driving at 80 on the interstate for hours on end.  Exit and
> > get onto a road
> > with a 55 speed limit an you'll feel like you could
> > step out and go faster.
> > I'm sure ya'll have experienced that?
> >
> >     Where the experienced driver excels is not so much in
> > driving fast but
> > in having the reflexs to catch a car coming out of a curve
> > and getting on
> > the gas a little early and as the rear wheels spin and the
> > tail gets loose,
> > the experienced driver will reflexively countersteer and
> > correct the slide.
> > Doing this at 50 is one thing, probaby most of us could do
> > that, but, doing
> > it at 150 is a whole 'nuther ball game!   Don't
> > know about ya'll, but when I
> > get frisky and start to explore the higher speeds possible
> > from my 911, I
> > generally do it on a long, straight, dry highway.
> >
> >     Maybe if I had High Speed Driving School in my
> > background things would
> > be different?  Or perhaps doing it over and over until I
> > could correct
> > consistantly at any speed would be just the thing - but
> > then practice would
> > be needed to maintain skills.  - naturally.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Larry T  (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T)
> > www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits &
> > Porsche Posters/Weber parts
> > Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/
> >
> > http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html
> >
> >
> > .
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "E M" <pokiebaron [at] gmail.com>
> > To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> > Cc: "Ferrarilist" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 1:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes or No?
> >
> >
> > > When I downshift, I usually on let the clutch out half
> > way.  Not sure if
> > > I've been doing it right all these years or not?
> > lol  I think I read the
> > > double clutching sequence in Bondurant's book on
> > high performance driving,
> > > waaaay back.  I've never adjusted the pedals in my
> > old car, I've just
> > > developed ankles that can bend in rather funny ways
> > over the years. :-)
> > >
> > > I remember Mansell once saying when asked if it takes
> > a lot of
> > > concentration
> > > to drive a F1 car flat out.  He said, "Not at
> > all, we drive 10/10ths
> > > without
> > > ever giving it a thought.  Only thing we think about
> > while doing so, is
> > > the
> > > race, and what we're chatting about over the radio
> > to our crew chief
> > > about".  I think the same applies to the road.
> > If things go wrong, and
> > > you
> > > have to stop and start assessing your options, chances
> > are, you'lle still
> > > be
> > > thinking about things as you drive into what
> > you're trying to avoid. hee
> > > hee.  Best to know what you and your car can do under
> > controlled
> > > conditions,
> > > and do it often to remind yourself. ;-)
> > >
> > > Ed
> > > 911SC, who's been chased out of more than one wet
> > parking lot by
> > > police/security people for having just a little too
> > much fun. ;-)
> > >
> > > 2009/2/13 Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
> > >
> > >> On heel and towing - First NO car today actually
> > has the set up of the
> > >> early
> > >> F1 cars where by one of the pedals is below each
> > other.  Older cars - 50
> > >> years ago?  Yes.  Not today - Most of what we do
> > is double clutching, by
> > >> rolling our foot onto the gas, especially on a
> > down shift.  Clutch in, 5
> > >> to
> > >> N, clutch out. Roll throttle or blip, Clutch in, N
> > to 4.  All the while
> > >> braking - sometimes.
> > >>
> > >> That said, at Riverside - preparing for turn 6,
> > downshift 5th to 4th
> > >> through
> > >> turn 5 while braking, (see above) Back on the gas
> > hard up the hill
> > >> through
> > >> first apex, do 4th to 3rd downshift, let out
> > clutch,lift off gas - back
> > >> end
> > >> reverse torques and tail comes around - hard on
> > gas through second apex
> > >> down
> > >> the short chute to turn 7.
> > >>
> > >> One time, with an instructor in the car,  I had
> > the gear shift knob come
> > >> off
> > >> doing the 4 to 3 shift.  I handed the knob to the
> > instructor and
> > >> continued
> > >> on my merry way.  heh heh
> > >>
> > >> DOUG
> > >> As for driving school?  You bet.  Ran our daughter
> > through normal Porsche
> > >> auto cross season.  Can not tell you how many
> > times my racing experience
> > >> as
> > >> saved my bacon on the highways and byways - mostly
> > spinal cord reaction -
> > >> none of this see think do crapola.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Rick Lindsay"
> > <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
> > >> To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> > >> Cc: "Ferrarilist"
> > <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > >> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:30 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes
> > or No?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Oh Mike, cut it out and tell us what you
> > really think.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Mike Fleischer
> > <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> From: Mike Fleischer
> > <themightytoe [at] gmail.com>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving
> > School? Yes or No?
> > >> >> To: "rolindsay"
> > <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
> > >> >> Cc: "Ferrarilist"
> > <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > >> >> Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 9:31 AM
> > >> >> OK
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I have been reading this thread for a bit
> > and as an HPDE
> > >> >> instructor, I
> > >> >> will put it out there to my Ferrari list
> > pals who I think
> > >> >> are a great
> > >> >> and entertaining group...  Would I want
> > to share track time
> > >> >> with you
> > >> >> guys on a road course?   Hell no, I value
> > my life too much.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Bunch of back seat drivers if I ever saw
> > them...  I would
> > >> >> be genuinely
> > >> >> surprised to see more than 10% of this
> > list be able to
> > >> >> execute a heel
> > >> >> and toe down shift consistently or to run
> > a single lap in
> > >> >> any car, let
> > >> >> alone their prized Ferrari at 10/10ths.
> > Seriously your a
> > >> >> bunch of
> > >> >> waxers when it comes to real driving, the
> > PCA and BMW CCA
> > >> >> guys would eat
> > >> >> your lunches no question.   No question
> > the rides look and
> > >> >> sound better,
> > >> >> but don't fool yourselves into
> > thinking the 370Z auto
> > >> >> rev matching was
> > >> >> not built specifically for you just like
> > those F1 paddles
> > >> >> in 80% of new
> > >> >> Ferrari's.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> As for the ZR1, yeah its a monster of a
> > car, and not for
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> inexperienced, but in the hands of a bad
> > driver, a Jetta is
> > >> >> dangerous.
> > >> >> The problem is not the horsepower though,
> > that's like
> > >> >> saying the problem
> > >> >> with guns is all the bullets... (hope
> > this stays on topic
> > >> >> after
> > >> >> that)...  I am a firm believer that in
> > the US of A, driver
> > >> >> training is
> > >> >> abysmal, no one should learn anything
> > more than the rules
> > >> >> for dodge ball
> > >> >> and the proper form of a sit up from
> > their gym teacher...
> > >> >> We Americans
> > >> >> start out with terrible training and then
> > spend the rest of
> > >> >> our lives
> > >> >> adding bad habits to that poor training.
> > I know many
> > >> >> adults who could
> > >> >> not manage to parallel park to save their
> > lives.  Take the
> > >> >> bad training
> > >> >> and habits and throw in a total lack of
> > regard for your
> > >> >> fellow man and
> > >> >> you have a bit of a dangerous situation.
> >  Before you point
> > >> >> fingers at
> > >> >> all those kids who are getting bad
> > training... What did you
> > >> >> do to
> > >> >> improve the same bad training you
> > received?  I learned to
> > >> >> drive in the
> > >> >> UK and even that was not sufficient
> > training in my
> > >> >> opinion...  I pro
> > >> >> actively went out and attended many
> > driving schools and car
> > >> >> control
> > >> >> clinics right after I got out of college.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I think that driver training is changing,
> > here in IL (state
> > >> >> of
> > >> >> corruption that it is) driver training is
> > probably the most
> > >> >> strict in
> > >> >> the country, they just bumped new driver
> > seat time
> > >> >> requirements from 50
> > >> >> to 100 hours of logged driving with a
> > licensed driver
> > >> >> (parent) or
> > >> >> instructor before a license is granted.
> > Kids here need to
> > >> >> keep a log
> > >> >> book (like a pilot in training).  I think
> > that is a step in
> > >> >> the right
> > >> >> direction.  Next step is mandatory in car
> > testing for the
> > >> >> first few
> > >> >> years of driving, and retesting at
> > regular intervals (like
> > >> >> every 5
> > >> >> years).  (Hey that would create jobs
> > too...)  No
> > >> >> demonstration of safe
> > >> >> skills, no license.  Plain and simple.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> No matter how much training you give,
> > there will still be
> > >> >> someone who's
> > >> >> skills are exceeded by their egos and our
> > insurance rates
> > >> >> will go up...
> > >> >> I don't blame them anymore than I
> > blame people in Texas
> > >> >> for letting
> > >> >> black mold grow in their duct works for
> > raising my
> > >> >> insurance rates...
> > >> >> Rick go check your ducts man!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Larry B wrote:
> > >> >> > You mean if I hand my wife the keys
> > to my Ferrari she
> > >> >> might not come back alive? Hmmm.  For as
> > long as I've
> > >> >> owned it she hasn't planted her rear
> > in the driver's
> > >> >> seat, but this gives me reason to rethink
> > that position.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Okay, just kidding.  Probably.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > LarryDate: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:14:12
> > -0800From:
> > >> >> cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com
> > >> >> > . . . . Do we really toss the wife
> > the keys to our
> > >> >> Ferraris and hope they come back alive?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > >> >> > To unsubscribe or modify your
> > subscription options,
> > >> >> please visit:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/themightytoe%40gmail.com
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > >> >> > and F1 Headlines
> > >> >> > http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > >> >> To unsubscribe or modify your
> > subscription options, please
> > >> >> visit:
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/rolindsay%40yahoo.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > >> >> and F1 Headlines
> > >> >> http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> > >> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > >> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
> > options, please visit:
> > >> >
> > http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/dnt%40dock.net
> > >> >
> > >> > Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > >> > and F1 Headlines
> > >> > http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > >> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription
> > options, please visit:
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/pokiebaron%40gmail.com
> > >>
> > >> Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > >> and F1 Headlines
> > >> http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> > >>
> > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options,
> > please visit:
> > >
> >
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/l02turner%40comcast.net
> > >
> > > Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > > and F1 Headlines
> > > http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please
> > visit:
> >
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/rolindsay%40yahoo.com
> >
> > Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> > and F1 Headlines
> > http://www.F1Headlines.com/
> _________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
> http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/pokiebaron%40gmail.com
>
> Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
> and F1 Headlines
> http://www.F1Headlines.com/
>