Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Require Driving School? Yes or No?

[E M (pokiebaron]

The old 930s are said to be more point and squirt type cars, but you better
make sure you're pointed in a straight line before applying too much of the
squirt pedal. lol

Ed
911SC

2009/2/14 <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>

> Yep. Smooth rules. I think about that when Alanso talks about his
> "point-n-squirt" driving style.
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> ------------------------------
> *From*: E M
> *Date*: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:41:43 -0500
> *To*: Rick Lindsay<rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
>
> *Subject*: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes or No?
> Hi Rick,
>
> Modern cars have come a long way, and can shift faster than than anyone I
> know.  Throw in computers that know when to blip the throttle the engine so
> as not to mess up the balance and it's a great tool that gives an edge, on
> track.
>
> With the older cars, heel and toe not only helped the gearbox make it to
> the end, and smooth out gear changes, but it was as much to keep the car
> balanced I feel.  Just imagine, driving really hard, going into a corner, on
> the brakes, load up the contact patch of the front tires, then go for a
> downshift without that heel and toe to blip up the engine.  Now you have
> front tires at max grip, engine it trying to brake, plus even more of the
> rear contact patch just went bye bye.  To make it more fun, if you're in an
> old 930, you just spooled up the turbo too, so when you let the clutch out,
> you have a bit of a jump in power to deal with too, while trying to slow.
> lol.  Oh yeah, and while all this is going on, get ready to turn into a
> corner.  Whooops!  Heal and toe really helps to smooth out the cars
> transition from going from various different tire loads.
>
> That's how I look at driving anyway, or the science of it.  A lot of it is
> all about the contact patch.  What's the old saying, that kind of applies,
> "you can have the best brakes in the world, but they won't do you much good
> when you're going down the road on the roof of the car"  hee hee.
>
> See Rick, it's all just science, you were born to be a racer. ;-)  Try to
> keep the tire patch big, so you can get the power down, or use the brakes to
> their fullest.  Heel and toe lets you go between those two things a bit
> smoother, which allows you to go quicker.  Also allows you to crash a lot
> quicker too if you over step the bounds of physics, ;-)
>
> Old 911s are kind of known to have crap transmissons.  I know when I get it
> just right, as the lever will almost fall into the next gear!  Ohhhh, what
> an amazing feeling that is when it happens! :D
> Ed
> 911SC
>
> 2009/2/14 Rick Lindsay <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
>
>> Morning Larry, et al.,
>>
>> All these beloved techniques like double clutching, heel-n-toe,
>> rev-matching, etc., are learned behaviors to make up for deficiencies in the
>> drive train - even if we do enjoy perfecting them.  A modern gearbox and its
>> associated computer handles it all effectively and efficiently.  That being
>> said, if we're talking about performance, which implies the inclusion of
>> time, dropping one's car off at the dealer is also a whole lot more
>> effective and efficient than rolling out the tool chest and spending all
>> weekend submersed in grease.  Yet, we choose to do our own work and we
>> choose to heel-n-toe.
>>
>> I think that we should never forget that for the majority of us, our cars
>> are a hobby.  How we choose to enjoy them is part of the hobby and its our
>> choice.  For me, it isn't driving - as I have said before.  It's building
>> and restoring.
>>
>> Just thoughts for Saturday.
>>
>> rick
>> PS: All that said about modern technology, my newest hobby car is 26 years
>> old!  The oldest is 48 years old!
>>
>> --- On Sat, 2/14/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes or No?
>> > To: "rolindsay" <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
>> > Cc: "Ferrarilist" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:07 AM
>> > Hi Ed -
>> >     As far as double clutching, I was taught to --
>> > 1.clutch in,
>> > 2. gear lever to neutral,
>> > 3  clutch out,
>> > 4. blip throttle,
>> > 5. gear lever in,
>> > 6. gear lever to next gear.
>> > 7. clutch out
>> >
>> >     You wrote that Mansell said He [Mansell]  said,
>> > "Not at all, we drive
>> > 10/10ths without
>> > ever giving it a thought."
>> >
>> >     I always thought it was a matter of what people get
>> > used to.  Like
>> > driving at 80 on the interstate for hours on end.  Exit and
>> > get onto a road
>> > with a 55 speed limit an you'll feel like you could
>> > step out and go faster.
>> > I'm sure ya'll have experienced that?
>> >
>> >     Where the experienced driver excels is not so much in
>> > driving fast but
>> > in having the reflexs to catch a car coming out of a curve
>> > and getting on
>> > the gas a little early and as the rear wheels spin and the
>> > tail gets loose,
>> > the experienced driver will reflexively countersteer and
>> > correct the slide.
>> > Doing this at 50 is one thing, probaby most of us could do
>> > that, but, doing
>> > it at 150 is a whole 'nuther ball game!   Don't
>> > know about ya'll, but when I
>> > get frisky and start to explore the higher speeds possible
>> > from my 911, I
>> > generally do it on a long, straight, dry highway.
>> >
>> >     Maybe if I had High Speed Driving School in my
>> > background things would
>> > be different?  Or perhaps doing it over and over until I
>> > could correct
>> > consistantly at any speed would be just the thing - but
>> > then practice would
>> > be needed to maintain skills.  - naturally.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Larry T  (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T)
>> > www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits &
>> > Porsche Posters/Weber parts
>> > Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/
>> >
>> > http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html
>> >
>> >
>> > .
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "E M" <pokiebaron [at] gmail.com>
>> > To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
>> > Cc: "Ferrarilist" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 1:47 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes or No?
>> >
>> >
>> > > When I downshift, I usually on let the clutch out half
>> > way.  Not sure if
>> > > I've been doing it right all these years or not?
>> > lol  I think I read the
>> > > double clutching sequence in Bondurant's book on
>> > high performance driving,
>> > > waaaay back.  I've never adjusted the pedals in my
>> > old car, I've just
>> > > developed ankles that can bend in rather funny ways
>> > over the years. :-)
>> > >
>> > > I remember Mansell once saying when asked if it takes
>> > a lot of
>> > > concentration
>> > > to drive a F1 car flat out.  He said, "Not at
>> > all, we drive 10/10ths
>> > > without
>> > > ever giving it a thought.  Only thing we think about
>> > while doing so, is
>> > > the
>> > > race, and what we're chatting about over the radio
>> > to our crew chief
>> > > about".  I think the same applies to the road.
>> > If things go wrong, and
>> > > you
>> > > have to stop and start assessing your options, chances
>> > are, you'lle still
>> > > be
>> > > thinking about things as you drive into what
>> > you're trying to avoid. hee
>> > > hee.  Best to know what you and your car can do under
>> > controlled
>> > > conditions,
>> > > and do it often to remind yourself. ;-)
>> > >
>> > > Ed
>> > > 911SC, who's been chased out of more than one wet
>> > parking lot by
>> > > police/security people for having just a little too
>> > much fun. ;-)
>> > >
>> > > 2009/2/13 Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
>> > >
>> > >> On heel and towing - First NO car today actually
>> > has the set up of the
>> > >> early
>> > >> F1 cars where by one of the pedals is below each
>> > other.  Older cars - 50
>> > >> years ago?  Yes.  Not today - Most of what we do
>> > is double clutching, by
>> > >> rolling our foot onto the gas, especially on a
>> > down shift.  Clutch in, 5
>> > >> to
>> > >> N, clutch out. Roll throttle or blip, Clutch in, N
>> > to 4.  All the while
>> > >> braking - sometimes.
>> > >>
>> > >> That said, at Riverside - preparing for turn 6,
>> > downshift 5th to 4th
>> > >> through
>> > >> turn 5 while braking, (see above) Back on the gas
>> > hard up the hill
>> > >> through
>> > >> first apex, do 4th to 3rd downshift, let out
>> > clutch,lift off gas - back
>> > >> end
>> > >> reverse torques and tail comes around - hard on
>> > gas through second apex
>> > >> down
>> > >> the short chute to turn 7.
>> > >>
>> > >> One time, with an instructor in the car,  I had
>> > the gear shift knob come
>> > >> off
>> > >> doing the 4 to 3 shift.  I handed the knob to the
>> > instructor and
>> > >> continued
>> > >> on my merry way.  heh heh
>> > >>
>> > >> DOUG
>> > >> As for driving school?  You bet.  Ran our daughter
>> > through normal Porsche
>> > >> auto cross season.  Can not tell you how many
>> > times my racing experience
>> > >> as
>> > >> saved my bacon on the highways and byways - mostly
>> > spinal cord reaction -
>> > >> none of this see think do crapola.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Rick Lindsay"
>> > <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
>> > >> To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
>> > >> Cc: "Ferrarilist"
>> > <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> > >> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:30 AM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving School? Yes
>> > or No?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > Oh Mike, cut it out and tell us what you
>> > really think.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Mike Fleischer
>> > <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> From: Mike Fleischer
>> > <themightytoe [at] gmail.com>
>> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Require Driving
>> > School? Yes or No?
>> > >> >> To: "rolindsay"
>> > <rolindsay [at] yahoo.com>
>> > >> >> Cc: "Ferrarilist"
>> > <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> > >> >> Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 9:31 AM
>> > >> >> OK
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I have been reading this thread for a bit
>> > and as an HPDE
>> > >> >> instructor, I
>> > >> >> will put it out there to my Ferrari list
>> > pals who I think
>> > >> >> are a great
>> > >> >> and entertaining group...  Would I want
>> > to share track time
>> > >> >> with you
>> > >> >> guys on a road course?   Hell no, I value
>> > my life too much.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Bunch of back seat drivers if I ever saw
>> > them...  I would
>> > >> >> be genuinely
>> > >> >> surprised to see more than 10% of this
>> > list be able to
>> > >> >> execute a heel
>> > >> >> and toe down shift consistently or to run
>> > a single lap in
>> > >> >> any car, let
>> > >> >> alone their prized Ferrari at 10/10ths.
>> > Seriously your a
>> > >> >> bunch of
>> > >> >> waxers when it comes to real driving, the
>> > PCA and BMW CCA
>> > >> >> guys would eat
>> > >> >> your lunches no question.   No question
>> > the rides look and
>> > >> >> sound better,
>> > >> >> but don't fool yourselves into
>> > thinking the 370Z auto
>> > >> >> rev matching was
>> > >> >> not built specifically for you just like
>> > those F1 paddles
>> > >> >> in 80% of new
>> > >> >> Ferrari's.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> As for the ZR1, yeah its a monster of a
>> > car, and not for
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> inexperienced, but in the hands of a bad
>> > driver, a Jetta is
>> > >> >> dangerous.
>> > >> >> The problem is not the horsepower though,
>> > that's like
>> > >> >> saying the problem
>> > >> >> with guns is all the bullets... (hope
>> > this stays on topic
>> > >> >> after
>> > >> >> that)...  I am a firm believer that in
>> > the US of A, driver
>> > >> >> training is
>> > >> >> abysmal, no one should learn anything
>> > more than the rules
>> > >> >> for dodge ball
>> > >> >> and the proper form of a sit up from
>> > their gym teacher...
>> > >> >> We Americans
>> > >> >> start out with terrible training and then
>> > spend the rest of
>> > >> >> our lives
>> > >> >> adding bad habits to that poor training.
>> > I know many
>> > >> >> adults who could
>> > >> >> not manage to parallel park to save their
>> > lives.  Take the
>> > >> >> bad training
>> > >> >> and habits and throw in a total lack of
>> > regard for your
>> > >> >> fellow man and
>> > >> >> you have a bit of a dangerous situation.
>> >  Before you point
>> > >> >> fingers at
>> > >> >> all those kids who are getting bad
>> > training... What did you
>> > >> >> do to
>> > >> >> improve the same bad training you
>> > received?  I learned to
>> > >> >> drive in the
>> > >> >> UK and even that was not sufficient
>> > training in my
>> > >> >> opinion...  I pro
>> > >> >> actively went out and attended many
>> > driving schools and car
>> > >> >> control
>> > >> >> clinics right after I got out of college.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I think that driver training is changing,
>> > here in IL (state
>> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> corruption that it is) driver training is
>> > probably the most
>> > >> >> strict in
>> > >> >> the country, they just bumped new driver
>> > seat time
>> > >> >> requirements from 50
>> > >> >> to 100 hours of logged driving with a
>> > licensed driver
>> > >> >> (parent) or
>> > >> >> instructor before a license is granted.
>> > Kids here need to
>> > >> >> keep a log
>> > >> >> book (like a pilot in training).  I think
>> > that is a step in
>> > >> >> the right
>> > >> >> direction.  Next step is mandatory in car
>> > testing for the
>> > >> >> first few
>> > >> >> years of driving, and retesting at
>> > regular intervals (like
>> > >> >> every 5
>> > >> >> years).  (Hey that would create jobs
>> > too...)  No
>> > >> >> demonstration of safe
>> > >> >> skills, no license.  Plain and simple.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> No matter how much training you give,
>> > there will still be
>> > >> >> someone who's
>> > >> >> skills are exceeded by their egos and our
>> > insurance rates
>> > >> >> will go up...
>> > >> >> I don't blame them anymore than I
>> > blame people in Texas
>> > >> >> for letting
>> > >> >> black mold grow in their duct works for
>> > raising my
>> > >> >> insurance rates...
>> > >> >> Rick go check your ducts man!
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> :)
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Larry B wrote:
>> > >> >> > You mean if I hand my wife the keys
>> > to my Ferrari she
>> > >> >> might not come back alive? Hmmm.  For as
>> > long as I've
>> > >> >> owned it she hasn't planted her rear
>> > in the driver's
>> > >> >> seat, but this gives me reason to rethink
>> > that position.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Okay, just kidding.  Probably.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > LarryDate: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:14:12
>> > -0800From:
>> > >> >> cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com
>> > >> >> > . . . . Do we really toss the wife
>> > the keys to our
>> > >> >> Ferraris and hope they come back alive?
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
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