Ferrari Mailing List: Re: 308 Engine Rebuild II

(continued)

   But if the Oil Analysis shows zero coolant I wouldn't think the 

overheating problem would be related to a leaking head gasket.  If the leak 

were bad enough to cause a overheating problem it would show coolant in the 

oil - I run a Oil Analysis business and I know how sensitive the tests are. 

We're talking about a few million parts of water or coolant in a oil sample.

   Of course, depending on the exact location of the leak it's possible the 

leak is allowing oil to get into the Coolant rather than the other way 

around.  Of course, that would mean the coolant would take on a milky look 

as the oil mixed with the coolant.

   Basically I don't think there's a leaking head gasket without other 

symptoms besides overheating.    Having said that, I still don't know why 

your Ferrari works as a air cooled engine when going over 40mph ;-)  and 

cools properly.  But when there's not enough airflow over/thru the radiator 

it overheats.  Which makes it sound like the radiator isn't having enough 

air flow through it when <40mph.  So I would suspect the radiator being 

partially plugged, the fans not moving air properly, etc.  But you fixed all 

of the normal things and a few abnormal.

   I have a 308 WSM around here - I'll look & see if I can tell anything 

from it --

Good luck -
LarryT

OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
www.youroil.net

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:02 PM
To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II

If the block is warped, wouldn't it stand to reason that the heads would 

be warped, too?

I agree that if the block is, indeed, warped then I'm done with this 

motor.  Too early to tell yet, though.

M

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, clyde romero <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:

From: clyde romero <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 9:06 AM

Mike I would strongly advise you not to rebuild and here is why. If your

engine experienced that much heat no doubt after several cycles according 

to

you, you have most likely warped the block as well and will never get a 

true

crankshaft with the main bearings. This will subsequently cause major

problems down the road. Remember the block is aluminum and suffered 

repeated

overheating cycles. You will be throwing good money after bad.
Ferrari 3 series all of them to include the 430 are running right at the
thermal limit with regards to cooling. And a the 308 had the biggest
radiator of the series, it had a USD size one not a small euro one.
Do as you see fit I wish you well and keep us informed

Clyde

Capt. Clyde Romero Jr.
Manpad SME
Clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net
Mobile 678 641 9932
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-----Original Message-----
From: Michael James [mailto:cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:52 PM
To: clyde
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II

During engine dis-assembly, there were a few things noted - most of the
hoses and wires around the block have been 'cooked' from years of
overheating, and the head gaskets were experiencing some minor liquid

seepage.  We could tell from this, and some of the old service records, 

that

the car had been overheating before I bought it but never correctly
diagnosed.

Prior to removal of the heads, each head bolt was 're-torqued' where they
were when the cam covers were removed.  This was done to 'see where they

are'.  Two were loose, another was found to be VERY loose - a defect in 

the

head casting prevented the factory head-bolt wrench from slipping over the
head nut for re-torquing, This nut was finger-tight, at best, and the

factory tool had to be cut-down to access the nut for torquing and 

removal.

The rear heads almost fell off the car, the front heads required minimal

pursuasion - I've heard horror stories about pulling QV heads off the 

block

before, but mine were easily removed.....

The head gasket looked alright - there were dark 'traces' from the edges 

of

the cylinder liners (exhaust gas leakage?) but no cracks or tears.....the
first smoking gun was when the transfer case cover was removed, along with

the water manifolds that are under the plenum and feed coolant to the 

heads

and block - large amounts of mineral 'deposits', like arterial blockage, 

had

formed throughout all of the tubes - large amounts of corrosion and scale

were everywhere, impeding the coolant's ability to 'flow'.  Coolant 

leakage

existed on all of the Block Galley Plugs, as well as coolat corrosion at
the #8 exhaust port.  I'm guessing the years of 'sitting' had caused the
coolant/water to coagulate, which had coated the passages with 'gunk'
unreachable with your garden-variety radiator flush.  This gunk had also
completely blocked one of the water pipes running to the top of the 7/8
cylinder passages, which was found after the pipes had been cleaned of
the hard-mineral scale (looks like white calcium build-up).

When we found this, the next step was to pull the pistons AND the liners 

to

see how bad things are in the block.  We have one piston liner out now - 

it

was VERY difficult to remove, but the liner looks pretty good.  We may be

able to save those, provided we can re-surface the inside.  The piston 

rings

are shot - leakdown numbers on most cylinders is above 12% (should be 5% 

or

less, according the the Factory cold-leakdown spec) and #7 piston had 

around

50%-80% leakdown - BAD.  My engine has 36K miles on it - high heat
conditions do more damage than just cooking one's oil apparently (I have
burnt oil glazing everything at the bottom-end).

The crank was especially interesting - all of the bearings here were 

TOAST.

The Crank looks perfect, but the bearings look like they came out of a car
with over 100K miles on it.  We're concerned that the head 'might' have an
issue and need re-honing.  The cams were gone-over with a fine-tooth comb,
and no unusual wear on the cams or the cam caps were found, so we're

confident that little-to-no head warpage exists.  The heads are in the 

shop

now for examination, crack testing and thorough cleaning.  New Valves 

seats

and guides will also go-in, and each valve will be checked as well as new
shims installed.

Most-every seal or gasket in the engine was actively weeping oil - they
don't last forever, so everything that leaks is getting replaced.  The
block, at the bare-minimum, will need to be chemically dipped to clean-out
the crap blocking the coolant passages and around the cylinder liners.  I

don't know what was used for coolant (maybe pure water?), but if its 

allowed

to sit for long periods of time without periodic flushing it WILL gunk-up

the engine.  This car obviously 'sat' for far too long, never had 

something

simple as having its fluids replaced regularly, and now its time take out
that second mortgage.

Did I mention that my engine ran quite WELL, aside from the overheating?
Make no mistake, Ferrari engines are tough bastards.....

M

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild
To: "Doug and Terri Anderson" <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:01 PM

Yea.....this looks pretty bad.  I tore-into my engine for a 30K
engine service this summer, and decided to think about what was causing an
overheating issue I've battled for five years now.  As Charles Perry can

attest, I've tried everything under the sun to fix the problem - new 

coolant

hoses/clamps, three new/different thermostats, rebuilt water pump, new fan
switch, new high-speed fans, new thermo-time switch, half-a-dozen new

radiator caps of various BAR ratings, high-capacity aluminum racing 

radiator

(three, first two had pin-holes in the welds), removed the CAT,

ceramic-coated much of the exhaust system, flushed the cooling system, 

etc.

etc. etc.

Still, the car would overheat if I drove less than 40 mph - above that
speed, the inrush of air would compensate for the overheating engine and
keep the car cool.  At highway speeds, the car would run all-day-long just
fine.  In stop-n-go traffic, the engine would attempt thermonuclear
meltdown.  Something was 'wrong', and I feared it was in the head/block
coolant journals.  A friend/fellow mechanic stuck a 4-gas analyzer in my

coolant expansion tank and measured CO2 levels there last summer - he 

found

well-over 100 ppm of CO2 and rising when the engine got hot.  That was
indicative of a head gasket failure.....hmmm.

SO, I had an oil sample sent-off to Blackstone Labs for analysis during my

30K service.....they didn't find any traces of coolant in my oil.  In 

fact,

my oil looked quite good, with normal levels of metals and water.  SO, the

only thing to do was have my local mechanic pull the motor and yank-off 

the

heads to determine just what in the hell was really going on in 

there......

Some history of my car - I had bought a vehicle that was stored for a long

period of time by a Doctor, who had purchased the car as an 'investment' 

in

the late 1990s.  He never drove it, and really didn't do anything in the

ways of preventative maintenance.  He did drop over $14,000 at various 

times

including a full-boat 30K service around 1997, but did nothing between 

then

and 2004...the mileage was low, and cosmetically perfect.....a PPI by
Norwoods in TX said that I had a very-solid driver with some interesting

leakdown numbers (that I didn't understand and they didn't interpret for 

me)

that were well-over 10%.

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:

From: Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 10:55 AM

308 engine rebuild ya say???
What year
How long did it take
You do it yer self?
DOUG

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>

To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material

Larry, I think you'll find such information fundamentally flawed. Most 

folks

get their health insurance through their employer - as costs rise in
healthcare and the insurance premiums rise to pay for it, its our nation's
employers who are taking it in the shorts. Company profits fall as health

care costs rise, which makes it more-and-more expensive for US Companies 

to

offer and pay-for this benefit to American employees. Many of these
employer-backed plans are paring-down benefits that used to be much more
all-inclusive years ago. We're paying more, and getting less coverage than
ever before. And I firmly believe this fact is part of what is driving US

companies to move the bulk of their businesses overseas where providing 

such

benefits is unnecessary or radically cheaper than what they have to pay in
the US.

Let's also not forget that individual deductables have greatly increased

over the years to stem the tide....and that elderly end-of-life care 

hasn't

reached critical-mass yet (the coming tsunami of Baby Boomer retirees
demanding care well into their 90s will come sooner than you think). It
would be premature to determine what, exactly, people should be 'happy'
with. We'll see how happy everyone is when six-digit medical bills become
the societal norm, and insurance companies get to decide who lives and who
dies based on what they feel like paying-for regarding medical services.

Remember, the private medical insurance community is a for-profit entity
first and foremost. Their primary business goal is to make a profit for
their shareholders - above all else. Such is the law of
Capitalism/Free-Enterprise. If they provide us with the services and

coverage we need to survive while they make a profit, great. If they can 

cut

corners with our coverage/services to continue to make a profit, fine by
them. If they can find a loophole somewhere that allows them to 'skip' on
covering a $500,000 critical-care medical bill and protect THEIR
bottom-line, they will. It's just business. Never mind the financial or

medical impact on YOU. If this situation wasn't happening, everywhere, 

then

Tort lawyers would be greatly under-employed - but they're not, are they?

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NeoCons insist that "there is

no problem".....the status quo is somehow 'perfect', because the Rich get 

to

afford the greatest healthcare in the world on-demand with no limitations.
Good for them - the rest of us get rationed healthcare today based on our
income and job status.

Does anyone want to hear about my 308 engine rebuild?

M

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:

From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:25 PM

Sorry Lee, my memory failed me (again - but I forgot) - it's actually

between 80% [and 89% cited below] as in <<the Washington Post/ABC Poll, 

81%

of those sampled were satisfied with their present health care insurance
policy. >>

and <<CNN poll finds that more than 80% of Americans are satisfied with 

the

quality of their health care.>>

and <<the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in
October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their

own personal medical care, [and] Those with recent serious health 

problems,

possibly the people with the best knowledge of how health care is working,

were generally the most satisfied. Ninety-three percent of insured 

Americans

who had recently suffered a serious illness were satisfied with their 

health

care. So were 95 percent of those who suffered from chronic illness.>>

and on and on.

LarryT

OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
www.youroil.net

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee S. Lingo" <leescars [at] comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:55 PM
To: "LarryT" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material

Larry,

Not even getting into the healthcare reform discussion, but where do you
cite your 90% number from & how can you back up your statement as fact
that we have the best healthcare system in the world. While I believe
that without a doubt we do, I cannot difinitively prove that as fact.

I was just wondering how you can flame someone else for posting facts 

they

think are true & citing a source to prove it while you can put forth only
opinions but post them as truth. Seems a little arrogant to me.

Oh, and I do not know for sure, but perhaps Mauricio, like me has tired 

of

the elitist rhetoric & hijacking of the list for political topics and 

only

checks his list email every few days. If that is the case, one might
surmise that his email was a response to your last political posting to
the list two or three days ago. I don't know.

I love talking cars with you guys & have found this list an invaluable
source of information on many topics over the years, many of which were
not car related. But when it comes to talking politics & religion, most
people turn into know-it-all ass holes and we are all no exception to
that.

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:28 PM
To: Lee Lingo <leescars [at] comcast.net>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material

Thanks For that comment Steve! I love this list because of the depth of
knowledge - I ask a lot of OT questions about TVs, DVD's Financing and
other

high tech stuff and I always KNOW I'll get a answer - usually it's 

correct

to boot! ;-)

BTW, what was Mauricio talking about? I must have missed something. His
comment about Obams spending didn't ring true but Jim fired back before I
could check facts (thx Jim!). I know I've heard Obama has spent more in
his
1st 8 months that all other presidents have before him - combined! I'll
find the backup shortly.

As far as the heath car system - we have the best system in the world, it
costs a lot but that's because we have methods for healing never dreamed
of
before. Also, IIRC, 90% of the population is happy with their situation.
If the illegal aliens & young people who don't want or need insurance are
taken out of the question we have a problem os maybe 10 million - instead
of

turning the medical system over to the USGov, to the tune of $1 tril 

(most

likely $3 Tril) we could *buy* them insurance for much less money! Of
course, don't advocate that - the govt doesn't need to be any more
involved
in health insurance and retirement than they already are - it should be
less
but that won't happen - it's like having a car with a flat tire - you fix
the tire, not buy a whole new car! Unless you're Mauricio I guess.

Later -
LarryT

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Re: 308 Engine Rebuild II	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: LarryT (l02turnercomcast.net)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:26:44 -0800 (PST)