Ferrari Mailing List: Re: 308 Engine Rebuild II

[clyderomero (clyderomero]

I agree here as well
Chk the radiator
I did the coolant every year
It was cheap insurance

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-----Original Message-----
From: "LarryT" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:26:27 
To: clyde<clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
Cc: 'The FerrariList'<ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II

    But if the Oil Analysis shows zero coolant I wouldn't think the 
overheating problem would be related to a leaking head gasket.  If the leak 
were bad enough to cause a overheating problem it would show coolant in the 
oil - I run a Oil Analysis business and I know how sensitive the tests are. 
We're talking about a few million parts of water or coolant in a oil sample.

    Of course, depending on the exact location of the leak it's possible the 
leak is allowing oil to get into the Coolant rather than the other way 
around.  Of course, that would mean the coolant would take on a milky look 
as the oil mixed with the coolant.

    Basically I don't think there's a leaking head gasket without other 
symptoms besides overheating.    Having said that, I still don't know why 
your Ferrari works as a air cooled engine when going over 40mph ;-)  and 
cools properly.  But when there's not enough airflow over/thru the radiator 
it overheats.  Which makes it sound like the radiator isn't having enough 
air flow through it when <40mph.  So I would suspect the radiator being 
partially plugged, the fans not moving air properly, etc.  But you fixed all 
of the normal things and a few abnormal.

    I have a 308 WSM around here - I'll look & see if I can tell anything 
from it --

Good luck -
LarryT



OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
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--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:02 PM
To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II

> If the block is warped, wouldn't it stand to reason that the heads would 
> be warped, too?
>
> I agree that if the block is, indeed, warped then I'm done with this 
> motor.  Too early to tell yet, though.
>
> M
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, clyde romero <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: clyde romero <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
> To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 9:06 AM
>
>
> Mike I would strongly advise you not to rebuild and here is why. If your
> engine experienced that much heat no doubt after several cycles according 
> to
> you, you have most likely warped the block as well and will never get a 
> true
> crankshaft with the main bearings. This will subsequently cause major
> problems down the road. Remember the block is aluminum and suffered 
> repeated
> overheating cycles. You will be throwing good money after bad.
> Ferrari 3 series all of them to include the 430 are running right at the
> thermal limit with regards to cooling. And a the 308 had the biggest
> radiator of the series, it had a USD size one not a small euro one.
> Do as you see fit I wish you well and keep us informed
>
>
>
>
>
> Clyde
>
> Capt. Clyde Romero Jr.
> Manpad SME
> Clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net
> Mobile 678 641 9932
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael James [mailto:cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:52 PM
> To: clyde
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
>
>
> During engine dis-assembly, there were a few things noted - most of the
> hoses and wires around the block have been 'cooked' from years of
> overheating, and the head gaskets were experiencing some minor liquid
> seepage.  We could tell from this, and some of the old service records, 
> that
> the car had been overheating before I bought it but never correctly
> diagnosed.
>
> Prior to removal of the heads, each head bolt was 're-torqued' where they
> were when the cam covers were removed.  This was done to 'see where they
> are'.  Two were loose, another was found to be VERY loose - a defect in 
> the
> head casting prevented the factory head-bolt wrench from slipping over the
> head nut for re-torquing, This nut was finger-tight, at best, and the
> factory tool had to be cut-down to access the nut for torquing and 
> removal.
> The rear heads almost fell off the car, the front heads required minimal
> pursuasion - I've heard horror stories about pulling QV heads off the 
> block
> before, but mine were easily removed.....
>
> The head gasket looked alright - there were dark 'traces' from the edges 
> of
> the cylinder liners (exhaust gas leakage?) but no cracks or tears.....the
> first smoking gun was when the transfer case cover was removed, along with
> the water manifolds that are under the plenum and feed coolant to the 
> heads
> and block - large amounts of mineral 'deposits', like arterial blockage, 
> had
> formed throughout all of the tubes - large amounts of corrosion and scale
> were everywhere, impeding the coolant's ability to 'flow'.  Coolant 
> leakage
> existed on all of the Block Galley Plugs, as well as coolat corrosion at
> the #8 exhaust port.  I'm guessing the years of 'sitting' had caused the
> coolant/water to coagulate, which had coated the passages with 'gunk'
> unreachable with your garden-variety radiator flush.  This gunk had also
> completely blocked one of the water pipes running to the top of the 7/8
> cylinder passages, which was found after the pipes had been cleaned of
> the hard-mineral scale (looks like white calcium build-up).
>
> When we found this, the next step was to pull the pistons AND the liners 
> to
> see how bad things are in the block.  We have one piston liner out now - 
> it
> was VERY difficult to remove, but the liner looks pretty good.  We may be
> able to save those, provided we can re-surface the inside.  The piston 
> rings
> are shot - leakdown numbers on most cylinders is above 12% (should be 5% 
> or
> less, according the the Factory cold-leakdown spec) and #7 piston had 
> around
> 50%-80% leakdown - BAD.  My engine has 36K miles on it - high heat
> conditions do more damage than just cooking one's oil apparently (I have
> burnt oil glazing everything at the bottom-end).
>
> The crank was especially interesting - all of the bearings here were 
> TOAST.
> The Crank looks perfect, but the bearings look like they came out of a car
> with over 100K miles on it.  We're concerned that the head 'might' have an
> issue and need re-honing.  The cams were gone-over with a fine-tooth comb,
> and no unusual wear on the cams or the cam caps were found, so we're
> confident that little-to-no head warpage exists.  The heads are in the 
> shop
> now for examination, crack testing and thorough cleaning.  New Valves 
> seats
> and guides will also go-in, and each valve will be checked as well as new
> shims installed.
>
> Most-every seal or gasket in the engine was actively weeping oil - they
> don't last forever, so everything that leaks is getting replaced.  The
> block, at the bare-minimum, will need to be chemically dipped to clean-out
> the crap blocking the coolant passages and around the cylinder liners.  I
> don't know what was used for coolant (maybe pure water?), but if its 
> allowed
> to sit for long periods of time without periodic flushing it WILL gunk-up
> the engine.  This car obviously 'sat' for far too long, never had 
> something
> simple as having its fluids replaced regularly, and now its time take out
> that second mortgage.
>
> Did I mention that my engine ran quite WELL, aside from the overheating?
> Make no mistake, Ferrari engines are tough bastards.....
>
> M
>
>
> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild
> To: "Doug and Terri Anderson" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yea.....this looks pretty bad.  I tore-into my engine for a 30K
> engine service this summer, and decided to think about what was causing an
> overheating issue I've battled for five years now.  As Charles Perry can
> attest, I've tried everything under the sun to fix the problem - new 
> coolant
> hoses/clamps, three new/different thermostats, rebuilt water pump, new fan
> switch, new high-speed fans, new thermo-time switch, half-a-dozen new
> radiator caps of various BAR ratings, high-capacity aluminum racing 
> radiator
> (three, first two had pin-holes in the welds), removed the CAT,
> ceramic-coated much of the exhaust system, flushed the cooling system, 
> etc.
> etc. etc.
>
> Still, the car would overheat if I drove less than 40 mph - above that
> speed, the inrush of air would compensate for the overheating engine and
> keep the car cool.  At highway speeds, the car would run all-day-long just
> fine.  In stop-n-go traffic, the engine would attempt thermonuclear
> meltdown.  Something was 'wrong', and I feared it was in the head/block
> coolant journals.  A friend/fellow mechanic stuck a 4-gas analyzer in my
> coolant expansion tank and measured CO2 levels there last summer - he 
> found
> well-over 100 ppm of CO2 and rising when the engine got hot.  That was
> indicative of a head gasket failure.....hmmm.
>
> SO, I had an oil sample sent-off to Blackstone Labs for analysis during my
> 30K service.....they didn't find any traces of coolant in my oil.  In 
> fact,
> my oil looked quite good, with normal levels of metals and water.  SO, the
> only thing to do was have my local mechanic pull the motor and yank-off 
> the
> heads to determine just what in the hell was really going on in 
> there......
>
> Some history of my car - I had bought a vehicle that was stored for a long
> period of time by a Doctor, who had purchased the car as an 'investment' 
> in
> the late 1990s.  He never drove it, and really didn't do anything in the
> ways of preventative maintenance.  He did drop over $14,000 at various 
> times
> including a full-boat 30K service around 1997, but did nothing between 
> then
> and 2004...the mileage was low, and cosmetically perfect.....a PPI by
> Norwoods in TX said that I had a very-solid driver with some interesting
> leakdown numbers (that I didn't understand and they didn't interpret for 
> me)
> that were well-over 10%.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
> To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 10:55 AM
>
>
> 308 engine rebuild ya say???
> What year
> How long did it take
> You do it yer self?
> DOUG
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>
>
> Larry, I think you'll find such information fundamentally flawed. Most 
> folks
>
> get their health insurance through their employer - as costs rise in
> healthcare and the insurance premiums rise to pay for it, its our nation's
> employers who are taking it in the shorts. Company profits fall as health
> care costs rise, which makes it more-and-more expensive for US Companies 
> to
> offer and pay-for this benefit to American employees. Many of these
> employer-backed plans are paring-down benefits that used to be much more
> all-inclusive years ago. We're paying more, and getting less coverage than
> ever before. And I firmly believe this fact is part of what is driving US
> companies to move the bulk of their businesses overseas where providing 
> such
>
> benefits is unnecessary or radically cheaper than what they have to pay in
> the US.
>
> Let's also not forget that individual deductables have greatly increased
> over the years to stem the tide....and that elderly end-of-life care 
> hasn't
> reached critical-mass yet (the coming tsunami of Baby Boomer retirees
> demanding care well into their 90s will come sooner than you think). It
> would be premature to determine what, exactly, people should be 'happy'
> with. We'll see how happy everyone is when six-digit medical bills become
> the societal norm, and insurance companies get to decide who lives and who
> dies based on what they feel like paying-for regarding medical services.
>
> Remember, the private medical insurance community is a for-profit entity
> first and foremost. Their primary business goal is to make a profit for
> their shareholders - above all else. Such is the law of
> Capitalism/Free-Enterprise. If they provide us with the services and
> coverage we need to survive while they make a profit, great. If they can 
> cut
>
> corners with our coverage/services to continue to make a profit, fine by
> them. If they can find a loophole somewhere that allows them to 'skip' on
> covering a $500,000 critical-care medical bill and protect THEIR
> bottom-line, they will. It's just business. Never mind the financial or
> medical impact on YOU. If this situation wasn't happening, everywhere, 
> then
> Tort lawyers would be greatly under-employed - but they're not, are they?
>
> I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NeoCons insist that "there is
> no problem".....the status quo is somehow 'perfect', because the Rich get 
> to
>
> afford the greatest healthcare in the world on-demand with no limitations.
> Good for them - the rest of us get rationed healthcare today based on our
> income and job status.
>
> Does anyone want to hear about my 308 engine rebuild?
>
> M
>
> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
> To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:25 PM
>
>
> Sorry Lee, my memory failed me (again - but I forgot) - it's actually
> between 80% [and 89% cited below] as in <<the Washington Post/ABC Poll, 
> 81%
> of those sampled were satisfied with their present health care insurance
> policy. >>
>
> and <<CNN poll finds that more than 80% of Americans are satisfied with 
> the
> quality of their health care.>>
>
> and <<the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in
> October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their
> own personal medical care, [and] Those with recent serious health 
> problems,
> possibly the people with the best knowledge of how health care is working,
> were generally the most satisfied. Ninety-three percent of insured 
> Americans
> who had recently suffered a serious illness were satisfied with their 
> health
> care. So were 95 percent of those who suffered from chronic illness.>>
>
> and on and on.
>
> LarryT
>
>
> OilAnalysis Time?
> Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
> www.youroil.net
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Lee S. Lingo" <leescars [at] comcast.net>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:55 PM
> To: "LarryT" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Subject: RE: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>
>> Larry,
>>
>> Not even getting into the healthcare reform discussion, but where do you
>> cite your 90% number from & how can you back up your statement as fact
>> that we have the best healthcare system in the world. While I believe
>> that without a doubt we do, I cannot difinitively prove that as fact.
>>
>> I was just wondering how you can flame someone else for posting facts 
>> they
>> think are true & citing a source to prove it while you can put forth only
>> opinions but post them as truth. Seems a little arrogant to me.
>>
>> Oh, and I do not know for sure, but perhaps Mauricio, like me has tired 
>> of
>> the elitist rhetoric & hijacking of the list for political topics and 
>> only
>> checks his list email every few days. If that is the case, one might
>> surmise that his email was a response to your last political posting to
>> the list two or three days ago. I don't know.
>>
>> I love talking cars with you guys & have found this list an invaluable
>> source of information on many topics over the years, many of which were
>> not car related. But when it comes to talking politics & religion, most
>> people turn into know-it-all ass holes and we are all no exception to
>> that.
>>
>> Lee
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:28 PM
>> To: Lee Lingo <leescars [at] comcast.net>
>> Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>>
>> Thanks For that comment Steve! I love this list because of the depth of
>> knowledge - I ask a lot of OT questions about TVs, DVD's Financing and
>> other
>> high tech stuff and I always KNOW I'll get a answer - usually it's 
>> correct
>> to boot! ;-)
>>
>> BTW, what was Mauricio talking about? I must have missed something. His
>> comment about Obams spending didn't ring true but Jim fired back before I
>> could check facts (thx Jim!). I know I've heard Obama has spent more in
>> his
>> 1st 8 months that all other presidents have before him - combined! I'll
>> find the backup shortly.
>>
>> As far as the heath car system - we have the best system in the world, it
>> costs a lot but that's because we have methods for healing never dreamed
>> of
>> before. Also, IIRC, 90% of the population is happy with their situation.
>> If the illegal aliens & young people who don't want or need insurance are
>> taken out of the question we have a problem os maybe 10 million - instead
>> of
>> turning the medical system over to the USGov, to the tune of $1 tril 
>> (most
>> likely $3 Tril) we could *buy* them insurance for much less money! Of
>> course, don't advocate that - the govt doesn't need to be any more
>> involved
>> in health insurance and retirement than they already are - it should be
>> less
>> but that won't happen - it's like having a car with a flat tire - you fix
>> the tire, not buy a whole new car! Unless you're Mauricio I guess.
>>
>> Later -
>> LarryT
>>
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