Ferrari Mailing List: Re: 308 Engine Rebuild II

[Tom Reynolds (kjtar]

Isn't Bon Ami the stuff that's good to use for windshield cleaning?  Jet Bon
Ami?
TominTulsa

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug and Terri Anderson" <dnt [at] dock.net>
To: <kjtar [at] cox.net>
Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II


> Warped block?
> Wasn't there an engine recall on early 308 two valve CIS injected engines?
> Replace the piston and cylinders.
> Something about rings not seating correctly?
> DOUG
> Then there was the crew at a late 60's Indy race out on the start line
with
> a can of Bon-Ami shaking the scrubbing stuff into a Ford Four Cam engine.
> Graham Hill's?  Clark's?  Foyt's?  No, not Foyt's - he woulda used a
hammer.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "clyde romero" <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
> To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: "'The FerrariList'" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
>
>
> Mike I would strongly advise you not to rebuild and here is why. If your
> engine experienced that much heat no doubt after several cycles according
to
> you, you have most likely warped the block as well and will never get a
true
> crankshaft with the main bearings. This will subsequently cause major
> problems down the road. Remember the block is aluminum and suffered
repeated
> overheating cycles. You will be throwing good money after bad.
> Ferrari 3 series all of them to include the 430 are running right at the
> thermal limit with regards to cooling. And a the 308 had the biggest
> radiator of the series, it had a USD size one not a small euro one.
> Do as you see fit I wish you well and keep us informed
>
>
>
>
>
> Clyde
>
> Capt. Clyde Romero Jr.
> Manpad SME
> Clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net
> Mobile 678 641 9932
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael James [mailto:cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:52 PM
> To: clyde
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
>
>
> During engine dis-assembly, there were a few things noted - most of the
> hoses and wires around the block have been 'cooked' from years of
> overheating, and the head gaskets were experiencing some minor liquid
> seepage. We could tell from this, and some of the old service records,
that
> the car had been overheating before I bought it but never correctly
> diagnosed.
>
> Prior to removal of the heads, each head bolt was 're-torqued' where they
> were when the cam covers were removed. This was done to 'see where they
> are'. Two were loose, another was found to be VERY loose - a defect in the
> head casting prevented the factory head-bolt wrench from slipping over the
> head nut for re-torquing, This nut was finger-tight, at best, and the
> factory tool had to be cut-down to access the nut for torquing and
removal.
> The rear heads almost fell off the car, the front heads required minimal
> pursuasion - I've heard horror stories about pulling QV heads off the
block
> before, but mine were easily removed.....
>
> The head gasket looked alright - there were dark 'traces' from the edges
of
> the cylinder liners (exhaust gas leakage?) but no cracks or tears.....the
> first smoking gun was when the transfer case cover was removed, along with
> the water manifolds that are under the plenum and feed coolant to the
heads
> and block - large amounts of mineral 'deposits', like arterial blockage,
had
> formed throughout all of the tubes - large amounts of corrosion and scale
> were everywhere, impeding the coolant's ability to 'flow'. Coolant leakage
> existed on all of the Block Galley Plugs, as well as coolat corrosion at
> the #8 exhaust port. I'm guessing the years of 'sitting' had caused the
> coolant/water to coagulate, which had coated the passages with 'gunk'
> unreachable with your garden-variety radiator flush. This gunk had also
> completely blocked one of the water pipes running to the top of the 7/8
> cylinder passages, which was found after the pipes had been cleaned of
>  the hard-mineral scale (looks like white calcium build-up).
>
> When we found this, the next step was to pull the pistons AND the liners
to
> see how bad things are in the block. We have one piston liner out now - it
> was VERY difficult to remove, but the liner looks pretty good. We may be
> able to save those, provided we can re-surface the inside. The piston
rings
> are shot - leakdown numbers on most cylinders is above 12% (should be 5%
or
> less, according the the Factory cold-leakdown spec) and #7 piston had
around
> 50%-80% leakdown - BAD. My engine has 36K miles on it - high heat
> conditions do more damage than just cooking one's oil apparently (I have
> burnt oil glazing everything at the bottom-end).
>
> The crank was especially interesting - all of the bearings here were
TOAST.
> The Crank looks perfect, but the bearings look like they came out of a car
> with over 100K miles on it. We're concerned that the head 'might' have an
> issue and need re-honing. The cams were gone-over with a fine-tooth comb,
> and no unusual wear on the cams or the cam caps were found, so we're
> confident that little-to-no head warpage exists. The heads are in the shop
> now for examination, crack testing and thorough cleaning. New Valves seats
> and guides will also go-in, and each valve will be checked as well as new
> shims installed.
>
> Most-every seal or gasket in the engine was actively weeping oil - they
> don't last forever, so everything that leaks is getting replaced. The
> block, at the bare-minimum, will need to be chemically dipped to clean-out
> the crap blocking the coolant passages and around the cylinder liners. I
> don't know what was used for coolant (maybe pure water?), but if its
allowed
> to sit for long periods of time without periodic flushing it WILL gunk-up
> the engine. This car obviously 'sat' for far too long, never had something
> simple as having its fluids replaced regularly, and now its time take out
> that second mortgage.
>
> Did I mention that my engine ran quite WELL, aside from the overheating?
> Make no mistake, Ferrari engines are tough bastards.....
>
> M
>
>
> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild
> To: "Doug and Terri Anderson" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yea.....this looks pretty bad. I tore-into my engine for a 30K
> engine service this summer, and decided to think about what was causing an
> overheating issue I've battled for five years now. As Charles Perry can
> attest, I've tried everything under the sun to fix the problem - new
coolant
> hoses/clamps, three new/different thermostats, rebuilt water pump, new fan
> switch, new high-speed fans, new thermo-time switch, half-a-dozen new
> radiator caps of various BAR ratings, high-capacity aluminum racing
radiator
> (three, first two had pin-holes in the welds), removed the CAT,
> ceramic-coated much of the exhaust system, flushed the cooling system,
etc.
> etc. etc.
>
> Still, the car would overheat if I drove less than 40 mph - above that
> speed, the inrush of air would compensate for the overheating engine and
> keep the car cool. At highway speeds, the car would run all-day-long just
> fine. In stop-n-go traffic, the engine would attempt thermonuclear
> meltdown. Something was 'wrong', and I feared it was in the head/block
> coolant journals. A friend/fellow mechanic stuck a 4-gas analyzer in my
> coolant expansion tank and measured CO2 levels there last summer - he
found
> well-over 100 ppm of CO2 and rising when the engine got hot. That was
> indicative of a head gasket failure.....hmmm.
>
> SO, I had an oil sample sent-off to Blackstone Labs for analysis during my
> 30K service.....they didn't find any traces of coolant in my oil. In fact,
> my oil looked quite good, with normal levels of metals and water. SO, the
> only thing to do was have my local mechanic pull the motor and yank-off
the
> heads to determine just what in the hell was really going on in
there......
>
> Some history of my car - I had bought a vehicle that was stored for a long
> period of time by a Doctor, who had purchased the car as an 'investment'
in
> the late 1990s. He never drove it, and really didn't do anything in the
> ways of preventative maintenance. He did drop over $14,000 at various
times
> including a full-boat 30K service around 1997, but did nothing between
then
> and 2004...the mileage was low, and cosmetically perfect.....a PPI by
> Norwoods in TX said that I had a very-solid driver with some interesting
> leakdown numbers (that I didn't understand and they didn't interpret for
me)
> that were well-over 10%.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
> To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 10:55 AM
>
>
> 308 engine rebuild ya say???
> What year
> How long did it take
> You do it yer self?
> DOUG
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>
>
> Larry, I think you'll find such information fundamentally flawed. Most
folks
>
> get their health insurance through their employer - as costs rise in
> healthcare and the insurance premiums rise to pay for it, its our nation's
> employers who are taking it in the shorts. Company profits fall as health
> care costs rise, which makes it more-and-more expensive for US Companies
to
> offer and pay-for this benefit to American employees. Many of these
> employer-backed plans are paring-down benefits that used to be much more
> all-inclusive years ago. We're paying more, and getting less coverage than
> ever before. And I firmly believe this fact is part of what is driving US
> companies to move the bulk of their businesses overseas where providing
such
>
> benefits is unnecessary or radically cheaper than what they have to pay in
> the US.
>
> Let's also not forget that individual deductables have greatly increased
> over the years to stem the tide....and that elderly end-of-life care
hasn't
> reached critical-mass yet (the coming tsunami of Baby Boomer retirees
> demanding care well into their 90s will come sooner than you think). It
> would be premature to determine what, exactly, people should be 'happy'
> with. We'll see how happy everyone is when six-digit medical bills become
> the societal norm, and insurance companies get to decide who lives and who
> dies based on what they feel like paying-for regarding medical services.
>
> Remember, the private medical insurance community is a for-profit entity
> first and foremost. Their primary business goal is to make a profit for
> their shareholders - above all else. Such is the law of
> Capitalism/Free-Enterprise. If they provide us with the services and
> coverage we need to survive while they make a profit, great. If they can
cut
>
> corners with our coverage/services to continue to make a profit, fine by
> them. If they can find a loophole somewhere that allows them to 'skip' on
> covering a $500,000 critical-care medical bill and protect THEIR
> bottom-line, they will. It's just business. Never mind the financial or
> medical impact on YOU. If this situation wasn't happening, everywhere,
then
> Tort lawyers would be greatly under-employed - but they're not, are they?
>
> I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NeoCons insist that "there is
> no problem".....the status quo is somehow 'perfect', because the Rich get
to
>
> afford the greatest healthcare in the world on-demand with no limitations.
> Good for them - the rest of us get rationed healthcare today based on our
> income and job status.
>
> Does anyone want to hear about my 308 engine rebuild?
>
> M
>
> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
> To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:25 PM
>
>
> Sorry Lee, my memory failed me (again - but I forgot) - it's actually
> between 80% [and 89% cited below] as in <<the Washington Post/ABC Poll,
81%
> of those sampled were satisfied with their present health care insurance
> policy. >>
>
> and <<CNN poll finds that more than 80% of Americans are satisfied with
the
> quality of their health care.>>
>
> and <<the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in
> October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their
> own personal medical care, [and] Those with recent serious health
problems,
> possibly the people with the best knowledge of how health care is working,
> were generally the most satisfied. Ninety-three percent of insured
Americans
> who had recently suffered a serious illness were satisfied with their
health
> care. So were 95 percent of those who suffered from chronic illness.>>
>
> and on and on.
>
> LarryT
>
>
> OilAnalysis Time?
> Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
> www.youroil.net
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Lee S. Lingo" <leescars [at] comcast.net>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:55 PM
> To: "LarryT" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Subject: RE: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > Not even getting into the healthcare reform discussion, but where do you
> > cite your 90% number from & how can you back up your statement as fact
> > that we have the best healthcare system in the world. While I believe
> > that without a doubt we do, I cannot difinitively prove that as fact.
> >
> > I was just wondering how you can flame someone else for posting facts
they
> > think are true & citing a source to prove it while you can put forth
only
> > opinions but post them as truth. Seems a little arrogant to me.
> >
> > Oh, and I do not know for sure, but perhaps Mauricio, like me has tired
of
> > the elitist rhetoric & hijacking of the list for political topics and
only
> > checks his list email every few days. If that is the case, one might
> > surmise that his email was a response to your last political posting to
> > the list two or three days ago. I don't know.
> >
> > I love talking cars with you guys & have found this list an invaluable
> > source of information on many topics over the years, many of which were
> > not car related. But when it comes to talking politics & religion, most
> > people turn into know-it-all ass holes and we are all no exception to
> > that.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:28 PM
> > To: Lee Lingo <leescars [at] comcast.net>
> > Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
> >
> > Thanks For that comment Steve! I love this list because of the depth of
> > knowledge - I ask a lot of OT questions about TVs, DVD's Financing and
> > other
> > high tech stuff and I always KNOW I'll get a answer - usually it's
correct
> > to boot! ;-)
> >
> > BTW, what was Mauricio talking about? I must have missed something. His
> > comment about Obams spending didn't ring true but Jim fired back before
I
> > could check facts (thx Jim!). I know I've heard Obama has spent more in
> > his
> > 1st 8 months that all other presidents have before him - combined! I'll
> > find the backup shortly.
> >
> > As far as the heath car system - we have the best system in the world,
it
> > costs a lot but that's because we have methods for healing never dreamed
> > of
> > before. Also, IIRC, 90% of the population is happy with their situation.
> > If the illegal aliens & young people who don't want or need insurance
are
> > taken out of the question we have a problem os maybe 10 million -
instead
> > of
> > turning the medical system over to the USGov, to the tune of $1 tril
(most
> > likely $3 Tril) we could *buy* them insurance for much less money! Of
> > course, don't advocate that - the govt doesn't need to be any more
> > involved
> > in health insurance and retirement than they already are - it should be
> > less
> > but that won't happen - it's like having a car with a flat tire - you
fix
> > the tire, not buy a whole new car! Unless you're Mauricio I guess.
> >
> > Later -
> > LarryT
> >
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