Ferrari Mailing List: Re: 308 Engine Rebuild II

[Steve Jenkins (steve]

Michael:

I say go for the teardown, bro. Even if it's truly a 50/50 choice, the
choice you're making keeps the original engine with the car, and rescues an
example of the iconic 3-litre block from the scrap heap.

Of course, if you change your mind, I could always use another Ferrari
engine coffee table! ;)

PLEASE keep us posted with updates and photos. I love rebuild threads. Even
ones from bleeding-heart liberals (I kid, Conan! I kid!). 

;)

SJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael James [mailto:cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 PM
To: Steve Jenkins
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II

Six of One, half-dozen of the other - I'll spend what a new, crated QV motor
would go-for at today's market prices (if you can find one anymore).  Sure,
Rutlands might have a used one sitting on the shelf, but I'd be buying an
'unknown' motor and have to take it apart anyway to make it right.  I still
thought about it, but I remember Michael Scallion pursued that once with
negative results so this was the way to go.  The only pricey parts I have to
replace, right now, are bearings, some valve bits, and piston rings.  We're
NOT going with factory piston rings or valve stuff if we can help it, which
should save quite a bit of $$$.  I'll have brand-new seals, bearings,
gaskets, belts, and hoses and all the work will be guaranteed.  I will have
a better-than-Factory engine when we're finished this spring, and will get
another 100K miles out of it before we have to do this again.

M

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net
<clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:


From: clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net <clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II
To: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:35 PM


I had over 100k on my 308 GTB with no issues
You need a new engine dude
That one is not worth the time nor effort

Clyde
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:52:17 
To: clyde<clyderomero [at] worldnet.att.net>
Cc: The FerrariList<ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild II


During engine dis-assembly, there were a few things noted - most of the
hoses and wires around the block have been 'cooked' from years of
overheating, and the head gaskets were experiencing some minor liquid
seepage.  We could tell from this, and some of the old service records, that
the car had been overheating before I bought it but never correctly
diagnosed.
 
Prior to removal of the heads, each head bolt was 're-torqued' where they
were when the cam covers were removed.  This was done to 'see where they
are'.  Two were loose, another was found to be VERY loose - a defect in the
head casting prevented the factory head-bolt wrench from slipping over the
head nut for re-torquing, This nut was finger-tight, at best, and the
factory tool had to be cut-down to access the nut for torquing and removal. 
The rear heads almost fell off the car, the front heads required minimal
pursuasion - I've heard horror stories about pulling QV heads off the block
before, but mine were easily removed.....
 
The head gasket looked alright - there were dark 'traces' from the edges of
the cylinder liners (exhaust gas leakage?) but no cracks or tears.....the
first smoking gun was when the transfer case cover was removed, along with
the water manifolds that are under the plenum and feed coolant to the heads
and block - large amounts of mineral 'deposits', like arterial blockage, had
formed throughout all of the tubes - large amounts of corrosion and scale
were everywhere, impeding the coolant's ability to 'flow'.  Coolant leakage
existed on all of the Block Galley Plugs, as well as coolat corrosion at
the #8 exhaust port.  I'm guessing the years of 'sitting' had caused the
coolant/water to coagulate, which had coated the passages with 'gunk'
unreachable with your garden-variety radiator flush.  This gunk had also
completely blocked one of the water pipes running to the top of the 7/8
cylinder passages, which was found after the pipes had been cleaned of
the hard-mineral scale (looks like white calcium build-up).  
 
When we found this, the next step was to pull the pistons AND the liners to
see how bad things are in the block.  We have one piston liner out now - it
was VERY difficult to remove, but the liner looks pretty good.  We may be
able to save those, provided we can re-surface the inside.  The piston rings
are shot - leakdown numbers on most cylinders is above 12% (should be 5% or
less, according the the Factory cold-leakdown spec) and #7 piston had around
50%-80% leakdown - BAD.  My engine has 36K miles on it - high heat
conditions do more damage than just cooking one's oil apparently (I have
burnt oil glazing everything at the bottom-end).  
 
The crank was especially interesting - all of the bearings here were TOAST. 
The Crank looks perfect, but the bearings look like they came out of a car
with over 100K miles on it.  We're concerned that the head 'might' have an
issue and need re-honing.  The cams were gone-over with a fine-tooth comb,
and no unusual wear on the cams or the cam caps were found, so we're
confident that little-to-no head warpage exists.  The heads are in the shop
now for examination, crack testing and thorough cleaning.  New Valves seats
and guides will also go-in, and each valve will be checked as well as new
shims installed.  
 
Most-every seal or gasket in the engine was actively weeping oil - they
don't last forever, so everything that leaks is getting replaced.  The
block, at the bare-minimum, will need to be chemically dipped to clean-out
the crap blocking the coolant passages and around the cylinder liners.  I
don't know what was used for coolant (maybe pure water?), but if its allowed
to sit for long periods of time without periodic flushing it WILL gunk-up
the engine.  This car obviously 'sat' for far too long, never had something
simple as having its fluids replaced regularly, and now its time take out
that second mortgage.
 
Did I mention that my engine ran quite WELL, aside from the overheating? 
Make no mistake, Ferrari engines are tough bastards.....
 
M


--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 308 Engine Rebuild
To: "Doug and Terri Anderson" <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:01 PM







Yea.....this looks pretty bad.  I tore-into my engine for a 30K
engine service this summer, and decided to think about what was causing an
overheating issue I've battled for five years now.  As Charles Perry can
attest, I've tried everything under the sun to fix the problem - new coolant
hoses/clamps, three new/different thermostats, rebuilt water pump, new fan
switch, new high-speed fans, new thermo-time switch, half-a-dozen new
radiator caps of various BAR ratings, high-capacity aluminum racing radiator
(three, first two had pin-holes in the welds), removed the CAT,
ceramic-coated much of the exhaust system, flushed the cooling system, etc.
etc. etc.

Still, the car would overheat if I drove less than 40 mph - above that
speed, the inrush of air would compensate for the overheating engine and
keep the car cool.  At highway speeds, the car would run all-day-long just
fine.  In stop-n-go traffic, the engine would attempt thermonuclear
meltdown.  Something was 'wrong', and I feared it was in the head/block
coolant journals.  A friend/fellow mechanic stuck a 4-gas analyzer in my
coolant expansion tank and measured CO2 levels there last summer - he found
well-over 100 ppm of CO2 and rising when the engine got hot.  That was
indicative of a head gasket failure.....hmmm.
 
SO, I had an oil sample sent-off to Blackstone Labs for analysis during my
30K service.....they didn't find any traces of coolant in my oil.  In fact,
my oil looked quite good, with normal levels of metals and water.  SO, the
only thing to do was have my local mechanic pull the motor and yank-off the
heads to determine just what in the hell was really going on in there......
 
Some history of my car - I had bought a vehicle that was stored for a long
period of time by a Doctor, who had purchased the car as an 'investment' in
the late 1990s.  He never drove it, and really didn't do anything in the
ways of preventative maintenance.  He did drop over $14,000 at various times
including a full-boat 30K service around 1997, but did nothing between then
and 2004...the mileage was low, and cosmetically perfect.....a PPI by
Norwoods in TX said that I had a very-solid driver with some interesting
leakdown numbers (that I didn't understand and they didn't interpret for me)
that were well-over 10%.  
 
 
 
 
 

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net> wrote:


From: Doug and Terri Anderson <dnt [at] dock.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 10:55 AM


308 engine rebuild ya say???
What year
How long did it take
You do it yer self?
DOUG

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael James" <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
To: "DOUG" <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material


Larry, I think you'll find such information fundamentally flawed. Most folks

get their health insurance through their employer - as costs rise in 
healthcare and the insurance premiums rise to pay for it, its our nation's 
employers who are taking it in the shorts. Company profits fall as health 
care costs rise, which makes it more-and-more expensive for US Companies to 
offer and pay-for this benefit to American employees. Many of these 
employer-backed plans are paring-down benefits that used to be much more 
all-inclusive years ago. We're paying more, and getting less coverage than 
ever before. And I firmly believe this fact is part of what is driving US 
companies to move the bulk of their businesses overseas where providing such

benefits is unnecessary or radically cheaper than what they have to pay in 
the US.

Let's also not forget that individual deductables have greatly increased 
over the years to stem the tide....and that elderly end-of-life care hasn't 
reached critical-mass yet (the coming tsunami of Baby Boomer retirees 
demanding care well into their 90s will come sooner than you think). It 
would be premature to determine what, exactly, people should be 'happy' 
with. We'll see how happy everyone is when six-digit medical bills become 
the societal norm, and insurance companies get to decide who lives and who 
dies based on what they feel like paying-for regarding medical services.

Remember, the private medical insurance community is a for-profit entity 
first and foremost. Their primary business goal is to make a profit for 
their shareholders - above all else. Such is the law of 
Capitalism/Free-Enterprise. If they provide us with the services and 
coverage we need to survive while they make a profit, great. If they can cut

corners with our coverage/services to continue to make a profit, fine by 
them. If they can find a loophole somewhere that allows them to 'skip' on 
covering a $500,000 critical-care medical bill and protect THEIR 
bottom-line, they will. It's just business. Never mind the financial or 
medical impact on YOU. If this situation wasn't happening, everywhere, then 
Tort lawyers would be greatly under-employed - but they're not, are they?

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NeoCons insist that "there is 
no problem".....the status quo is somehow 'perfect', because the Rich get to

afford the greatest healthcare in the world on-demand with no limitations. 
Good for them - the rest of us get rationed healthcare today based on our 
income and job status.

Does anyone want to hear about my 308 engine rebuild?

M

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net> wrote:


From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:25 PM


Sorry Lee, my memory failed me (again - but I forgot) - it's actually
between 80% [and 89% cited below] as in <<the Washington Post/ABC Poll, 81%
of those sampled were satisfied with their present health care insurance
policy. >>

and <<CNN poll finds that more than 80% of Americans are satisfied with the
quality of their health care.>>

and <<the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in
October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their
own personal medical care, [and] Those with recent serious health problems,
possibly the people with the best knowledge of how health care is working,
were generally the most satisfied. Ninety-three percent of insured Americans
who had recently suffered a serious illness were satisfied with their health
care. So were 95 percent of those who suffered from chronic illness.>>

and on and on.

LarryT


OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
www.youroil.net



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee S. Lingo" <leescars [at] comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:55 PM
To: "LarryT" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: RE: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material

> Larry,
>
> Not even getting into the healthcare reform discussion, but where do you
> cite your 90% number from & how can you back up your statement as fact
> that we have the best healthcare system in the world. While I believe
> that without a doubt we do, I cannot difinitively prove that as fact.
>
> I was just wondering how you can flame someone else for posting facts they
> think are true & citing a source to prove it while you can put forth only
> opinions but post them as truth. Seems a little arrogant to me.
>
> Oh, and I do not know for sure, but perhaps Mauricio, like me has tired of
> the elitist rhetoric & hijacking of the list for political topics and only
> checks his list email every few days. If that is the case, one might
> surmise that his email was a response to your last political posting to
> the list two or three days ago. I don't know.
>
> I love talking cars with you guys & have found this list an invaluable
> source of information on many topics over the years, many of which were
> not car related. But when it comes to talking politics & religion, most
> people turn into know-it-all ass holes and we are all no exception to
> that.
>
> Lee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LarryT <l02turner [at] comcast.net>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:28 PM
> To: Lee Lingo <leescars [at] comcast.net>
> Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Politics - Not List Material
>
> Thanks For that comment Steve! I love this list because of the depth of
> knowledge - I ask a lot of OT questions about TVs, DVD's Financing and
> other
> high tech stuff and I always KNOW I'll get a answer - usually it's correct
> to boot! ;-)
>
> BTW, what was Mauricio talking about? I must have missed something. His
> comment about Obams spending didn't ring true but Jim fired back before I
> could check facts (thx Jim!). I know I've heard Obama has spent more in
> his
> 1st 8 months that all other presidents have before him - combined! I'll
> find the backup shortly.
>
> As far as the heath car system - we have the best system in the world, it
> costs a lot but that's because we have methods for healing never dreamed
> of
> before. Also, IIRC, 90% of the population is happy with their situation.
> If the illegal aliens & young people who don't want or need insurance are
> taken out of the question we have a problem os maybe 10 million - instead
> of
> turning the medical system over to the USGov, to the tune of $1 tril (most
> likely $3 Tril) we could *buy* them insurance for much less money! Of
> course, don't advocate that - the govt doesn't need to be any more
> involved
> in health insurance and retirement than they already are - it should be
> less
> but that won't happen - it's like having a car with a flat tire - you fix
> the tire, not buy a whole new car! Unless you're Mauricio I guess.
>
> Later -
> LarryT
>
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