Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

[Steve Jenkins (steve]

Notice that Doug astutely said “double-clutching AND heal-toeing” (well played, sir!).

 

“Double-clutching” and “heel-toe-downshifting” are not the same thing. Some people incorrectly use the terms interchangeably. Just wanted to help clarify for those who may be thinking about them for the first time, and/or are considering learning one or both techniques.

 

Double-clutching is a good skill to have, but somewhat less necessary with newer transmissions with synchros. But under extreme braking (i.e. track) situations, it can be useful (if you’re fast enough to do it right). Also, when the synchros started to go out on my F40, DC-ing was very handy.

 

HTDS is something I do EVERY single time I downshift a manual transmission – whether in a Ferrari or a Chevy Lacetti. ;)

 

SteveJ

 

P.S. I need Cocoa Puffs…

 

From: Doug and Terri Anderson [mailto:dnt [at] dock.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 7:09 PM
To: Steve Jenkins
Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

 

Double clutching and HT'ing into the turns at Riverside International Raceway were the ONLYIST way to get around safely in our early 911 - 901 transmissions.  Set up is important.  I put a small washer under the right hand side of the floor mounted hinge throttle pedal which kicked the pedal over to left about one inch at the brake pedal.  PERFECT.  And Dennis is MOST correct - you can learn how to do this going to the store.  All my students were FORCED to learn double clutching at first and then put in the HT before they got on the track.  Once learned - it takes almost no more time to do AND no more reverse wheel torque with chassis upset.  Smoooooooth.

Our 308 is a bit tough to do as the pedal is too far to the right - guess I could place an extension as the race cars are prone to do.

And speaking of Porsche 911's - our 1982 911 SC with the floor mounted set up but monkey motion brake apparatus into the trunk is horrible - no smooth HT for me - but still double clutch on down shifts.

Onward

DOUG

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Liu

To: DOUG

Cc: 'The FerrariList'

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

 

Fellippe:  no excuses, you can practice and use heel & toe downshifting everyday.  Do it on the street all the time, and it becomes 2nd nature, pure reflex.  And you don't need to drive like speed racer on the streets to do it either.  While, to a degree, it IS easier to pull off a nice heel-toe when you're driving aggressively on the track (n.b., it's much more noticeable --and costly-- if you screw it up there), just PRACTICE and you can do it anytime, in any car. 

 

And some cars are much better set-up for heel/toe than others.  For example, the Miata is about perfect; most Ferraris are pretty good.  The pre-996 911s were horrible; if you could do a smooth heel-toe downshift from 3rd into 2nd at a tight corner on a racetrack in an earlier 911, well, that's pretty close to the ne plus ultra for downshifting in a synchro tranny car.

 

vty,

 

--Dennis

 

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From: Mike Fleischer [mailto:themightytoe [at] gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:44 AM
To: Fellippe Galletta
Cc: Dennis Liu; The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Stunning New Porsche 918 Spyder - Another Hybrid

Ah right,

Well its really experience based, any stick shift car can be heel and toed, I have done it in pickup trucks...  Some are easier to do than others...  Ferrari's actually have really perfect pedal placement for this, as do later model Porsche's (post 993), I never liked the pedals that hinge on the floor instead of from behind or above as on early 911's, but a smooth HT is very important in those cars, and a good double clutch shift on early cars also.  Part of the challenge of getting an older 911 to go through turns nose first the entire way :), but a 1972 RS is about the best, most enjoyable track toy ever built when its dialed in.

Heel-Toe is really a misnomer though, its more of a side to side roll of your foot on most sports cars, the right edge of your right foot rolls to the throttle to blip it while planted firmly on the brake pedal.  It should not matter how far down the brake pedal is as much as how accurately you can blip the throttle, and that is entirely dependent on your foot but also the engine's elasticity and torque delivery... 

My  current Vette is a bit of a pain because while it revs pretty quick its not quick enough and the torque available everywhere makes getting it just perfect a bit tricky, you can't be close, you have to be dead on our the rear end shakes (or the front if you don't give it enough I guess).  The M3 and Ferrari both revved high and had much less torque which made them easy to do it, my Boxster also...  My 01 Z06 was actually really good, it had the torque of my current Vette (and then some) but the engine would spin up much faster than my LS2 Vette's and was on a more predictable throttle curve.  My Miata worked pretty well, but once momentum was gained, much of a track was 4th gear, just hold on at ludicrous speeds through corners, and read a book down the straights.

Dennis may have more input on this, not sure if he still wears his instructor helmet occasionally?

Mike



Fellippe Galletta wrote:

 

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Mike <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Ok. You all have convinced me...  The vette is getting the loudest
street legal exhaust I can find for it...  Gonna make some babies and
Prius owners cry...

:-)
 

And anyone who has ever done a perfect heel-toe downshift at race
speeds would never trade that experience for paddles...  Never.

Very inspirational, thanks Mike!!

I hope to be able to execute a perfect heel/toe downshift at race speeds someday.....that's always been the thing I've wanted to learn how to do most ever since I learned how to drive stickshift.

Curious if we may side track on a "worthy" topic?

My biggest question is does it matter much really to a good heel/toer about pedal placement, width of pedals, and perhaps even pedals mounted from the floor as opposed from above??

Also I believe I was told heel/toe was far more natural at full sustained braking than casual driving given how much closer the brake pedal is to the floor than usual.

I remember heel & toeing WITH EASE (at age 20) a car that had the brake pedal go to the floor....shitty braking but oh such joy blipping that throttle. :)

FG

 

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