OK
>The analogy is a bit silly if you don't mind me saying. Do you
not think the battery failed in your computer because the charger was
>probably not the best?
Silly? Maybe it was poor charge cycling? But no one can argue that
the endless battery doesn't yet exist. They all fail eventually. But
the point was when it did fail, finding a matching new one is a
problem. And that's for a 10 ounce pack... Eventually the stuff will
standardize but I don't want to be the guy with the beta VCR when it
does.
It sounds like fantastic stuff on the horizon no question. But a 5
grand swiss charge station doesn't sound like its going to be
mainstream anytime soon? Is this an install at your home or at your
place of business? How many Tesla's or LEAF's can you charge on that 5
grand station at one time 1/2 or 1/4 of a car? How long to fully
charge a LEAF that is completely discharged? half a charge? Sorry if
this is still under NDA :)
I agree its going to eventually happen, but unless battery tech makes
significant strides its going to trade in on current problems and pose
as large or a larger problems than our current mainstream solution of
gasoline. The energy density of even today's best commercially
available batteries isn't even in the ballpark close to Diesel or
Gasoline, this looks dated to me, I think Li+ is actually about 2x
better today than this chart shows, but its still miles away from what
OPEC provides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg
This means that if 50% of drivers go electric, we burn that much more
coal (and its not 2x, more like 10x) (or nuclear fuel if you are in
France) and the mild brownouts seen even in the United states become
much less mild. Also even if you manage to double the useful life of
those batteries, they will still end up in a dump somewhere, does it
matter if its 10 years or 30 years away? Li+ always wants to be Li2
eventually. And you really shouldn't drink that stuff, nor should your
great grandchildren.
What I don't like most however is the utter shortsightedness of adding
batteries to cars and kicking them out the door for a quick profit. A
5000 charge station looks bad but is likely cheap compared to the
infrastructure redesign that governments would need to undertake to
properly run induction lines through roads, and let the cars minimize
the on board energy storage. This would improve efficiency across the
board as the vehicles become much lighter, the need to recharge goes
away, and so on... We could still learn a lot from Nikolai Tesla, that
guy had to be an alien or time-traveler...
BR,
Mike
Britt2Asa [at] aol.com wrote:
Guys,
Its nice to be back! If you don't mind me saying since I work in
the industry and don't just read stuff off the internet, Apple pie is
Apple pie but there are a lot of different receipts. Tesla's
application is specific to Tesla. Other manufacturers do it
differently. You know up in Sunderland at the Nissan plant they will be
producing 50,000 LEAFs a year in another 12 months. (Next years
production is from Japan). You say it will never take off? Well not on
the level of taxes and policies the US has but over here with a London
Low emissions zone, CO2 charging and fuel tax it is quickly shifting
towards electric cars in the right application.
The analogy is a bit silly if you don't mind me saying. Do you
not think the battery failed in your computer because the charger was
probably not the best? When you can buy a computer charger/phone
charger for a few dollars of EBAY, don't be surprised when your Li-ion
battery only lasts a year or two. The chargers we use cost 5000.00 EACH
(that's pounds, not dollars). Come from Brusa in Switzerland. We use 2
or 4 on each vehicle. They look at charging on a cell level, that is
each individual cell in each li-ion module is looked at and the charge
is individually controlled. This as you can imagine is very very
expensive to design and build but adds greatly to the battery life.
(estimated 10 plus years in excess of the vehicle life) Don't assume
the batteries in the car you eventually buy have much in common with
you computer other than they are both called Li-ion.
Do you know that an industry is being built up here in the UK in
the USA and Japan to "second life" all these batteries when they are no
longer suitable to work in a vehicle but still can hold energy? You can
pile them up on a truck and get one gigawatt of power as a portable
power supply. Use them to store wind energy generated at night when the
grid demand is low, use them as back up power storage for data centres,
hospitals, office buildings. Even seen designs to put them in sailing
yachts as ballast and energy for a supplemental electric motor. I'm not
involved in that side of the business but talk to people who are every
week. The point of this is having a higher value on the used batteries
means a lower whole life cost on the vehicle which makes them more
affordable as the capital cost on electric vehicles is very high
currently.
Enough on the lesson. The nameless company I work for is design
some stuff that will be out in the next year or two that is pretty
amazing and cutting edge stuff. Oh and most of the engineering team are
serious gear heads. Our engineering director spent his last two years
at Mclaren working on the new little super car. (MP whatever it is
called) He also did most of the architecture on the SLR. An electric
car wouldn't work for me, I drive 400 miles most day. Diesel BMW is the
only way to afford the fuel and emissions taxes and go that distance
but for most people commuting only 10-20 miles a day an EV would work
very well even if just a second car.
I am not giving up the Italian car thing but trust me if you are
a car buff you need to keep your eyes open cause there is some really
interesting stuff in the EV world and more coming out. Over here in the
next 2 years we have Nissan, Merc, Mitsubishi, Audi, Citroen, Fiat,
Peugeot, Vauxhall, and possibly Ford (not confirmed yet but the market
rumours are there) all introducing electric cars to the mainstream
market. I bet the Lotus Evora is an EV pretty soon (Lotus and Jag/Land
Rover are constantly running recruitment ads here for engineers in the
electric car industry)
One last little point, I don't know anybody working in the
manufacturing/engineering side of the electric vehicle business who is
doing it to save the world or make the world greener. They are doing it
because it is cutting edge technology and it is fascinating. If you
like cars and mechanics and engineering keep your eyes open on what is
coming out because you will find it as fascinating as I do!
Britt
BR in the UK
1986 328GTS (LHD 89,940km) Died August 19, 2006 Shrewsbury UK
1980 400i (RHD 74,000 miles)
Searching for the right 512TR
1985 Bertone X1/9
2003 BMW 530d
1991 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
1993 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
2010 BMW 320d
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org>
wrote:
Uh, well, not really.
Spend a bit of time on the Tesla website. The battery pack
is MUCH more than just
batteries. It contains a full cooling/heating system, as
well as highly complex
proprietary electronics. The individual cells are not
replaceable. It would require
a complete new battery system, which would have to be
sourced from Tesla,
unless they choose to license the technology involved to
others.
Hans.
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:03 AM,
Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:
|
Batteries is Batteries - Duracell, Energizer,
Optima, Interstate, etc. will all want to get-into that BIG market and
sell you batteries for your car - every future WalMart, Autozone, Pep
Boys, Tire Rack, Batteris Plus, and Target will have them in-stock,
24/7. How many different sizes for Camera and Watch batteries are
there? About a dozen or two? Did variety kill the market? Nope.
Silly argument. Real Capitalists are excited by the prospects.
M
From: Mike Fleischer <themightytoe [at] gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Have your cake and eat it too!
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 5:38 PM
Yeah but one of life's lessons...
I had a trip out to Silicon Valley last March. In the middle of a week
of presenting for a customer, my mac book's battery died. Stopped
holding a charge, and pretty much was next to useless unless plugged
into the AC adapter/wall... Now fortunately, there were some Apple
stores in the Valley and they for some odd reason were well stocked, so
$115 later and I am good to go...
Now if I am driving out to Road America and my Tesla's batteries stop
holding a charge while I am sleeping at the Osthoff? I imagine I am
entirely F'ed. This is why Electric cars won't take off, not only are
they expensive and less efficient than gasoline vehicles, but the lack
of standardization out of the gate will turn it into another unholy
Beta vs. VHS fight. Wait for all the Prius owners to start footing the
bill to replace the hybrid battery packs... Not to mention if it
becomes mainstream, dealing with the heavy metals in spent
batteries... China would probably be happy to make children's toys out
of it but shipping it over there might cost more than its worth.
Honestly I really like the Hydrogen fuel cell technology the best out
of all the "alternative" sources.
Sorry for the rant, wanted to go flying today and didn't get a
chance... And hey man, stop with all the bicycles already.
LtWacko wrote:
I get tired of
hearing "I'll take the old vs. new" or "new vs. old". Mike, we're on
the Ferrari list. Take 'em both! LOL. Oh wait, my house is proof of
that and I have room for nothing!
Rodney
Certainly having all your torque at 0 RPM is
amazing, and having played
with RC cars for many years, its about time someone made a full size
version :) All it will take is an incremental improvement in battery
technology to push these into the mainstream, but I would not trade it
for the WOT scream of a V-8, 10 or 12 on any given sunny afternoon :).
BR,
Mike
|
_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/themightytoe%40gmail.com
Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
and F1 Headlines
http://www.F1Headlines.com/
|
gmail.com)
