Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Have your cake and eat it too!

[Hans E. Hansen (FList]

Just a couple of quick notes:

 

1.  The $5K gadget he mentioned is *not* for a charger.  It is the "battery

management system" that is an integral part of the car.  It monitors and

controls both charging and discharging.  Most electric cars don't need

any sort of expensive dedicated charger - altho they are available if

quick charging is needed.  The Tesla is capable of recharging from

a regular 110V socket, as well as 220V household (think drier outlet)

sockets.  No special equipment needed, unless you want to go with

the 70A quick charge option.

 

2.  When the battery eventually poops out, it will be recycled.  See

the Tesla website for more info.  This isn't a green weenie don't polute

effort; rather it is a practical economic one.  The contents of the battery

are valuable enough that it would be stupid to throw it away.

 

3.  Yes, if too many people jump on the electric bandwagon, it could

tax the existing electric infrastructure.  Somewhere on the Tesla site

I read that if 1/3 of your neighbors try to recharge their Teslas at the

highest current rate (240V/70A) at the same time, it could overload your

neighborhood power transformer (that big thingy on top of a power pole

somewhere down the street).  So this is not an "end" technology, but

rather a supplemental one to what we already have.

 

Hans.

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Mike Fleischer <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:

OK

 

>The analogy is a bit silly if you don't mind me saying. Do you not think the battery failed in your computer because the charger was >probably not the best?

Silly?  Maybe it was poor charge cycling?  But no one can argue that the endless battery doesn't yet exist.  They all fail eventually.  But the point was when it did fail, finding a matching new one is a problem.  And that's for a 10 ounce pack...  Eventually the stuff will standardize but I don't want to be the guy with the beta VCR when it does.

It sounds like fantastic stuff on the horizon no question.  But a 5 grand swiss charge station doesn't sound like its going to be mainstream anytime soon?  Is this an install at your home or at your place of business?  How many Tesla's or LEAF's can you charge on that 5 grand station at one time 1/2 or 1/4 of a car?  How long to fully charge a LEAF that is completely discharged?  half a charge?  Sorry if this is still under NDA :)

I agree its going to eventually happen, but unless battery tech makes significant strides its going to trade in on current problems and pose as large or a larger problems than our current mainstream solution of gasoline.  The energy density of even today's best commercially available batteries isn't even in the ballpark close to Diesel or Gasoline, this looks dated to me, I think Li+ is actually about 2x better today than this chart shows, but its still miles away from what OPEC provides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

This means that if 50% of drivers go electric, we burn that much more coal (and its not 2x, more like 10x) (or nuclear fuel if you are in France) and the mild brownouts seen even in the United states become much less mild.  Also even if you manage to double the useful life of those batteries, they will still end up in a dump somewhere, does it matter if its 10 years or 30 years away?  Li+ always wants to be Li2 eventually.  And you really shouldn't drink that stuff, nor should your great grandchildren.

What I don't like most however is the utter shortsightedness of adding batteries to cars and kicking them out the door for a quick profit.  A 5000 charge station looks bad but is likely cheap compared to the infrastructure redesign that governments would need to undertake to properly run induction lines through roads, and let the cars minimize the on board energy storage.  This would improve efficiency across the board as the vehicles become much lighter, the need to recharge goes away, and so on...  We could still learn a lot from Nikolai Tesla, that guy had to be an alien or time-traveler...
 
BR,
Mike


Britt2Asa [at] aol.com wrote:

Guys,

Its nice to be back! If you don't mind me saying since I work in the industry and don't just read stuff off the internet, Apple pie is Apple pie but there are a lot of different receipts. Tesla's application is specific to Tesla. Other manufacturers do it differently. You know up in Sunderland at the Nissan plant they will be producing 50,000 LEAFs a year in another 12 months. (Next years production is from Japan). You say it will never take off? Well not on the level of taxes and policies the US has but over here with a London Low emissions zone, CO2 charging and fuel tax it is quickly shifting towards electric cars in the right application.

 

The analogy is a bit silly if you don't mind me saying. Do you not think the battery failed in your computer because the charger was probably not the best? When you can buy a computer charger/phone charger for a few dollars of EBAY, don't be surprised when your Li-ion battery only lasts a year or two. The chargers we use cost 5000.00 EACH (that's pounds, not dollars). Come from Brusa in Switzerland. We use 2 or 4 on each vehicle. They look at charging on a cell level, that is each individual cell in each li-ion module is looked at and the charge is individually controlled. This as you can imagine is very very expensive to design and build but adds greatly to the battery life. (estimated 10 plus years in excess of the vehicle life) Don't assume the batteries in the car you eventually buy have much in common with you computer other than they are both called Li-ion.

 

Do you know that an industry is being built up here in the UK in the USA and Japan to "second life" all these batteries when they are no longer suitable to work in a vehicle but still can hold energy? You can pile them up on a truck and get one gigawatt of power as a portable power supply. Use them to store wind energy generated at night when the grid demand is low, use them as back up power storage for data centres, hospitals, office buildings. Even seen designs to put them in sailing yachts as ballast and energy for a supplemental electric motor. I'm not involved in that side of the business but talk to people who are every week. The point of this is having a higher value on the used batteries means a lower whole life cost on the vehicle which makes them more affordable as the capital cost on electric vehicles is very high currently.

 

Enough on the lesson. The nameless company I work for is design some stuff that will be out in the next year or two that is pretty amazing and cutting edge stuff. Oh and most of the engineering team are serious gear heads. Our engineering director spent his last two years at Mclaren working on the new little super car. (MP whatever it is called) He also did most of the architecture on the SLR. An electric car wouldn't work for me, I drive 400 miles most day. Diesel BMW is the only way to afford the fuel and emissions taxes and go that distance but for most people commuting only 10-20 miles a day an EV would work very well even if just a second car.

 

I am not giving up the Italian car thing but trust me if you are a car buff you need to keep your eyes open cause there is some really interesting stuff in the EV world and more coming out. Over here in the next 2 years we have Nissan, Merc, Mitsubishi, Audi, Citroen, Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall, and possibly Ford (not confirmed yet but the market rumours are there) all introducing electric cars to the mainstream market. I bet the Lotus Evora is an EV pretty soon (Lotus and Jag/Land Rover are constantly running recruitment ads here for engineers in the electric car industry)

 

One last little point, I don't know anybody working in the manufacturing/engineering side of the electric vehicle business who is doing it to save the world or make the world greener. They are doing it because it is cutting edge technology and it is fascinating. If you like cars and mechanics and engineering keep your eyes open on what is coming out because you will find it as fascinating as I do!

 

Britt

 

BR in the UK
1986 328GTS (LHD 89,940km) Died August 19, 2006 Shrewsbury UK
1980 400i (RHD 74,000 miles)
Searching for the right 512TR
1985 Bertone X1/9
2003 BMW 530d
1991 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
1993 Alfa Spider S4 LHD
2010 BMW 320d

 

In a message dated 21/05/2010 19:19:11 GMT Daylight Time, FList [at] hanshansen.org writes:

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Hans E. Hansen <FList [at] hanshansen.org> wrote:

Uh, well, not really.

 

Spend a bit of time on the Tesla website.  The battery pack is MUCH more than just

batteries.  It contains a full cooling/heating system, as well as highly complex

proprietary electronics.  The individual cells are not replaceable.  It would require

a complete new battery system, which would have to be sourced from Tesla,

unless they choose to license the technology involved to others.

 

Hans.

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Michael James <cavallino_rapante [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

Batteries is Batteries - Duracell, Energizer, Optima, Interstate, etc. will all want to get-into that BIG market and sell you batteries for your car - every future WalMart, Autozone, Pep Boys, Tire Rack, Batteris Plus, and Target will have them in-stock, 24/7.  How many different sizes for Camera and Watch batteries are there?  About a dozen or two?  Did variety kill the market?  Nope.  Silly argument.  Real Capitalists are excited by the prospects.

 

M

--- On Thu, 5/20/10, Mike Fleischer <themightytoe [at] gmail.com> wrote:

From: Mike Fleischer <themightytoe [at] gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Have your cake and eat it too!
To: "Michael" <Cavallino_Rapante [at] yahoo.com>
Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 5:38 PM

Yeah but one of life's lessons...

I had a trip out to Silicon Valley last March.  In the middle of a week of presenting for a customer, my mac book's battery died.  Stopped holding a charge, and pretty much was next to useless unless plugged into the AC adapter/wall...  Now fortunately, there were some Apple stores in the Valley and they for some odd reason were well stocked, so $115 later and I am good to go...

Now if I am driving out to Road America and my Tesla's batteries stop holding a charge while I am sleeping at the Osthoff?  I imagine I am entirely F'ed.  This is why Electric cars won't take off, not only are they expensive and less efficient than gasoline vehicles, but the lack of standardization out of the gate will turn it into another unholy Beta vs. VHS fight.  Wait for all the Prius owners to start footing the bill to replace the hybrid battery packs...  Not to mention if it becomes mainstream, dealing with the heavy metals in spent batteries...  China would probably be happy to make children's toys out of  it but shipping it over there might cost more than its worth.

Honestly I really like the Hydrogen fuel cell technology the best out of all the "alternative" sources.

Sorry for the rant, wanted to go flying today and didn't get a chance...  And hey man, stop with all the bicycles already.

LtWacko wrote:

I get tired of hearing "I'll take the old vs. new" or "new vs. old".  Mike, we're on the Ferrari list.  Take 'em both!  LOL.  Oh wait, my house is proof of that and I have room for nothing!

 

Rodney

 

 

 

In a message dated 05/20/10 05:18:39 Central Daylight Time, ferrari-request [at] ferrarilist.com writes:

Certainly having all your torque at 0 RPM is amazing, and having played
with RC cars for many years, its about time someone made a full size
version :)  All it will take is an incremental improvement in battery
technology to push these into the mainstream, but I would not trade it
for the WOT scream of a V-8, 10 or 12 on any given sunny afternoon :).

BR,
Mike

 

_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/themightytoe%40gmail.com

Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com 
and F1 Headlines
http://www.F1Headlines.com/
  

_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit:
http://lists.ferrarilist.com/mailman/options/ferrari/flist%40hanshansen.org

Sponsored by BooyahMedia.com
and F1 Headlines
http://www.F1Headlines.com/