Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB
From: Erik Nielsen (judge4regmail.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 14:55:17 -0700 (PDT)
All right, the little one has his iPad and is distracted again.

In very simple terms, an engine is an air pump.  If you want more power, you want more fuel and air to push through.  That’s it.  Plain and simple.

Only everyone started realizing a few years ago that using dead dinosaurs probably was a finite resource, plus the stuff coming out the back of the car kept most of LA from seeing the Hollywood sign.  Regulators start getting involved circa 1967.  First big issue that was trying to be addressed was CO and HC, hence the “thermal reactors” that sort of worked get introduced.  Still work with carbs, but CFD wasn’t even a wet dream at this point, so header and exhaust design was basically a lot of trial and error.  You could still use a carb, but they were limited in that you really didn’t have a lot of adjustment, they were more or less “set and forget” devices, problem is your air pump is running at all sorts of different conditions from cold starts in northern Maine where even the locals said “screw it, the maple syrup has the consistency of asphalt” to the bumper to bumper joy of the 405.  On any day.  At any time.

Fuel injection is nothing new, it came out in 1902.  Don’t believe me?  Look it up.

Once the guys in white coats at Bosch started playing with it, the questions they started asking was “how much fuel do you need and when”.  And that’s been where most of the development has gone.  As control systems have gotten better, more variables come into play.  The average control system is looking at about 1800 channels of data now, all trying to mainly squeeze in the best amount of performance without sacrificing any efficiency.  Pretty tough to do that on a Holley carb with only two screws.  FI is here to stay.

Now we have two different sets of regulations looking at trying to improve efficiency.  The Americans went down the route of fuel economy, the Europeans look at CO2 per km, both approaches lead to the same engineering approach, make things smaller and lighter.  Most of Europe went with diesel for passenger cars (> 50% market share), encouraged with more taxes on gasoline.  The USA was content with CAFE requirements, which is leading to engine downsizing and turbo charging (think Ford’s Ecoboost).  All sorts of cool tricks are being played now, but most of it is direct injection turbo charging.  The bad thing is that if you push for performance too hard, you make soot.  Soot is nasty.  But the regulations are coming soon on that one and I’m waiting for more patents to be issued before I say more.

There is a huge argument about if electrics really make sense on an overall energy basis, but you have to ask if you’d rather regulate pollution at a few large emission sources (power plants) or on each of the ~16 million new point sources on light duty gasoline vehicles sold in the USA this year?  Or the 253 million already out there?

Feel free to ask me to go down any rabbit hole you want on this…

Respectfully,
Erik

By the way, if you want to impress friends at the next cocktail hour give them this tidbit.  The F35 fighter uses 8 million lines of code.  The Chevy Volt runs off of 10 million...


On Apr 16, 2016, at 4:19 PM, clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com wrote:

I see the weak spot already 

In victory you deserve Champagne
In defeat you need it!

     

Scars are Tattoos with better stories !

If you follow all the rules
You miss all the fun! 

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    


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On Apr 16, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Robert W. Garven Jr. <rgarven [at] gmail.com> wrote:

<308 GT4 40DCNF apart.jpg>
Robert W. Garven Jr.


 "The Ferrari is a dream - people dream of owning this special vehicle and for most people it will remain a dream apart from for those lucky few." Enzo Ferrari






On Apr 16, 2016, at 11:21 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:

How does any car enthusiast, let alone a Ferrari owner say that?

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 2:06 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure some miss the sounds of an IBM computer reading punch cards, too. 

From: Fellippe Galletta
Sent: ‎4/‎16/‎2016 12:34 PM

To: Erik Nielsen
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB

You might be right.

But the death of the romantic sound of gasoline combustion would be sad.

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:
No need for a diff or a transmission. 100% torque at 0 rpm, too. 

The automakers screwed up, they tried to convince the market that this was a green solution and missed out the performance benefits. Tesla figured that part out.

Dual powertrains (hybrids) are a bastardized solution to deal with lack of infrastructure and range anxiety.  Lazy engineering...

From: Fellippe Galletta
Sent: ‎4/‎16/‎2016 11:06 AM

To: Erik Nielsen
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB

Why would you want a motor on every wheel?

Unless of course you could eliminate the differential by doing so?

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:
The I3 is still around. 

The next real trick set up will be an electric motor on each wheel. I'm expecting to see it in the next 10 years, sooner if the powers that be in racing allow it. But I expect that legacy automakers will fight it tooth and nail.


From: Rick Moseley
Sent: ‎4/‎16/‎2016 9:56 AM
To: Erik Nielsen

Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB

Doug,
I believe the name you are looking for was Michelle Mouton...  she came within a point of winning the rally championship then went to Pikes Peak and destroyed the existing record at the time.  I think she only did it once.  After that Audi brought Walter Rorhl.(spelling?)

On the street, that "disappointment" only lasted one race... Long Beach.  By the time the second race of their first season came along Hurley Haywood was dominant.  It wasn't until Hans Stuck discovered left foot braking did "Donohue's unfair advantage" come back to the race track.   Yes, watching him dance on the pedals was a real treat.   I'd imagine pedal sets had to be changed due to wear as well.   So race directors added more weight, restricted the turbos and made Audi use smaller tires...  They still killed.  Next year they let everyone use bigger tires.... Haywood and Stuck would circulate until every else's tires went off, then they attacked (visciously), finished one-two and won everything.   It wasn't just 4 wheel drive, it was the Quattro center diff. and the instant slingshot horsepower of the I5 using left foot braking with the right foot mashed to the floor to keep the turbo spooled.  At Watkins Glen in the rain I think they lapped the field... twice.

There was a big engineering study in the early 70s on the efficiency of cylinders vs. parasitic loss.  It showed the best combinations were I3, I5 and V10s.   Obviously, F1 went to V10s and Audi was very successful with the I5.   But other than a handful of other motors you just don't see the "efficient" designs in play.   The world is stuck on I4, V6, V8 and V12  (and Peter is correct, the road going Ferrari flats were 180 degree V12s, not boxers).

And to bring this back full circle on the air cooled vs. water cooled topic....  VW bugs are boxers...  Subarus are water cooled boxers.

Rick



From: Doug & Terri <dnt [at] dock.net>
To: Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> 
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB

Thanks Rick – what a skill for the driver – what craziness for the onlookers.
 
Yeah – Audi Quattro.  When they first came out didn’t a young girl set several Pikes Peak records driving one?
 
That and the poor Audi turbo when it first out was a disappointment – then Hans Stuck came along.  Camera inside the car focused on his feet.  WOW.  The guy looked like he was playing Flight of the Bumble bee with his feet.  Oh, and the Audi Turbo Quattro  super shined.  What was his trick?  Hans said just keep the engine full on all the time – don’t let up.  Heh heh
DOUG

 
From: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pless
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 11:29 PM
To: DOUG <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB
 
All true, Rick, but a standard 930 doesn’t do any of those things!
 
From: Rick Moseley [mailto:ramosel [at] pacbell.net] 
Sent: Saturday, 16 April 2016 10:16 AM
To: Peter Pless
Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB
 
 
Doug, Doug, Doug....
That would depend on whether or not you like the sound of spinning turbos, waste gates whistling and pop-off valves.   When interspersed with the sounds of a sewing machine engine at full tilt boogie and add bit of exhaust....  its a thing of aural beauty.
 
But my favorite sound of that era... was water cooled.    Audi Quattro S1, Group B - Mikkola at the controls.  
2-1/2 minutes of ANGRY engineering at the hands of a master.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDRkHXMHqFo
 
aaaaahhhhhh.......
 
 
512BB?  The one with 27 (seemingly) Weber carburetors?  If so – I believe it would have had the 930 beat for sound. 
 
 

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