| Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB | <– Date –> <– Thread –> |
From: Rick Moseley (ramosel pacbell.net)
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| Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 13:25:01 -0700 (PDT) | |
Nice read Erik...
My issue with electrics is they are environmental disasters during production and after road life. They are truly only green when on the road. My other problem is the Govt. rebates on electrics should have been mandated towards solar charging so as to push the "out of sight" (coal fired electric) towards the positive.
I don't see electrics making any real impact until A) there is a quantum leap in storage and/or B) the automakers standardize a battery arrangement so you can pull into a roadside station and get a battery change in 2 minutes paying only for the charge.
Until then, ICEs will reign as primary transportation.
Soot... I know it's a tree hugger's nightmare but I get such a kick out of seeing those tractor pull diesels when they start coming up on the turbo(s). You can measure the soot in "physical toqrue"... pounds per foot! But you know it is making serious power.
Fuel Injection... 1902? Levassuer?? (sp?). I learned from Dan Fodge... not quite that long ago.
Rick
From: Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com>
To: Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net>
Cc: The FerrariList <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BB
All right, the little one has his iPad and is distracted again.In very simple terms, an engine is an air pump. If you want more power, you want more fuel and air to push through. That’s it. Plain and simple.Only everyone started realizing a few years ago that using dead dinosaurs probably was a finite resource, plus the stuff coming out the back of the car kept most of LA from seeing the Hollywood sign. Regulators start getting involved circa 1967. First big issue that was trying to be addressed was CO and HC, hence the “thermal reactors” that sort of worked get introduced. Still work with carbs, but CFD wasn’t even a wet dream at this point, so header and exhaust design was basically a lot of trial and error. You could still use a carb, but they were limited in that you really didn’t have a lot of adjustment, they were more or less “set and forget” devices, problem is your air pump is running at all sorts of different conditions from cold starts in northern Maine where even the locals said “screw it, the maple syrup has the consistency of asphalt” to the bumper to bumper joy of the 405. On any day. At any time.Fuel injection is nothing new, it came out in 1902. Don’t believe me? Look it up.Once the guys in white coats at Bosch started playing with it, the questions they started asking was “how much fuel do you need and when”. And that’s been where most of the development has gone. As control systems have gotten better, more variables come into play. The average control system is looking at about 1800 channels of data now, all trying to mainly squeeze in the best amount of performance without sacrificing any efficiency. Pretty tough to do that on a Holley carb with only two screws. FI is here to stay.Now we have two different sets of regulations looking at trying to improve efficiency. The Americans went down the route of fuel economy, the Europeans look at CO2 per km, both approaches lead to the same engineering approach, make things smaller and lighter. Most of Europe went with diesel for passenger cars (> 50% market share), encouraged with more taxes on gasoline. The USA was content with CAFE requirements, which is leading to engine downsizing and turbo charging (think Ford’s Ecoboost). All sorts of cool tricks are being played now, but most of it is direct injection turbo charging. The bad thing is that if you push for performance too hard, you make soot. Soot is nasty. But the regulations are coming soon on that one and I’m waiting for more patents to be issued before I say more.There is a huge argument about if electrics really make sense on an overall energy basis, but you have to ask if you’d rather regulate pollution at a few large emission sources (power plants) or on each of the ~16 million new point sources on light duty gasoline vehicles sold in the USA this year? Or the 253 million already out there?Feel free to ask me to go down any rabbit hole you want on this…Respectfully,ErikBy the way, if you want to impress friends at the next cocktail hour give them this tidbit. The F35 fighter uses 8 million lines of code. The Chevy Volt runs off of 10 million...On Apr 16, 2016, at 4:19 PM, clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com wrote:I see the weak spot alreadyIn victory you deserve ChampagneIn defeat you need it!![]()
Scars are Tattoos with better stories !If you follow all the rulesYou miss all the fun!If you have no enemies, you have no character !Clyde RomeroConfidentiality Notice: This e-mail ( including attachments ) is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U. S. C., Sections 2510-2521, and is intended only for the persons or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, copying, forwarding or distribution is prohibited.This email transmission, and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is priviledged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information containes in or attached to this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by reply e-mail at Clyde.romerof4 [at] gmail.com or by telephone at (678 6419932)and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them or saving them to disk.<308 GT4 40DCNF apart.jpg>Robert W. Garven Jr."The Ferrari is a dream - people dream of owning this special vehicle and for most people it will remain a dream apart from for those lucky few." Enzo FerrariOn Apr 16, 2016, at 11:21 AM, Fellippe Galletta <fellippe.galletta [at] gmail.com> wrote:How does any car enthusiast, let alone a Ferrari owner say that?_________________________________________________________________On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 2:06 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:I'm sure some miss the sounds of an IBM computer reading punch cards, too.You might be right.But the death of the romantic sound of gasoline combustion would be sad.On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:No need for a diff or a transmission. 100% torque at 0 rpm, too.
The automakers screwed up, they tried to convince the market that this was a green solution and missed out the performance benefits. Tesla figured that part out.
Dual powertrains (hybrids) are a bastardized solution to deal with lack of infrastructure and range anxiety. Lazy engineering...Why would you want a motor on every wheel?Unless of course you could eliminate the differential by doing so?On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Erik Nielsen <judge4re [at] gmail.com> wrote:The I3 is still around.
The next real trick set up will be an electric motor on each wheel. I'm expecting to see it in the next 10 years, sooner if the powers that be in racing allow it. But I expect that legacy automakers will fight it tooth and nail.Doug,I believe the name you are looking for was Michelle Mouton... she came within a point of winning the rally championship then went to Pikes Peak and destroyed the existing record at the time. I think she only did it once. After that Audi brought Walter Rorhl.(spelling?)On the street, that "disappointment" only lasted one race... Long Beach. By the time the second race of their first season came along Hurley Haywood was dominant. It wasn't until Hans Stuck discovered left foot braking did "Donohue's unfair advantage" come back to the race track. Yes, watching him dance on the pedals was a real treat. I'd imagine pedal sets had to be changed due to wear as well. So race directors added more weight, restricted the turbos and made Audi use smaller tires... They still killed. Next year they let everyone use bigger tires.... Haywood and Stuck would circulate until every else's tires went off, then they attacked (visciously), finished one-two and won everything. It wasn't just 4 wheel drive, it was the Quattro center diff. and the instant slingshot horsepower of the I5 using left foot braking with the right foot mashed to the floor to keep the turbo spooled. At Watkins Glen in the rain I think they lapped the field... twice.There was a big engineering study in the early 70s on the efficiency of cylinders vs. parasitic loss. It showed the best combinations were I3, I5 and V10s. Obviously, F1 went to V10s and Audi was very successful with the I5. But other than a handful of other motors you just don't see the "efficient" designs in play. The world is stuck on I4, V6, V8 and V12 (and Peter is correct, the road going Ferrari flats were 180 degree V12s, not boxers).And to bring this back full circle on the air cooled vs. water cooled topic.... VW bugs are boxers... Subarus are water cooled boxers.Rick
From: Doug & Terri <dnt [at] dock.net>
To: Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BBThanks Rick – what a skill for the driver – what craziness for the onlookers.Yeah – Audi Quattro. When they first came out didn’t a young girl set several Pikes Peak records driving one?That and the poor Audi turbo when it first out was a disappointment – then Hans Stuck came along. Camera inside the car focused on his feet. WOW. The guy looked like he was playing Flight of the Bumble bee with his feet. Oh, and the Audi Turbo Quattro super shined. What was his trick? Hans said just keep the engine full on all the time – don’t let up. Heh hehDOUGFrom: Ferrari [mailto:ferrari-bounces+dnt=dock.net [at] ferrarilist.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pless
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 11:29 PM
To: DOUG <dnt [at] dock.net>
Cc: 'The FerrariList' <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BBAll true, Rick, but a standard 930 doesn’t do any of those things!From: Rick Moseley [mailto:ramosel [at] pacbell.net]
Sent: Saturday, 16 April 2016 10:16 AM
To: Peter Pless
Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] 930 Air cooled v. 512BBDoug, Doug, Doug....That would depend on whether or not you like the sound of spinning turbos, waste gates whistling and pop-off valves. When interspersed with the sounds of a sewing machine engine at full tilt boogie and add bit of exhaust.... its a thing of aural beauty.But my favorite sound of that era... was water cooled. Audi Quattro S1, Group B - Mikkola at the controls.2-1/2 minutes of ANGRY engineering at the hands of a master. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDRkHXMHqFoaaaaahhhhhh.......512BB? The one with 27 (seemingly) Weber carburetors? If so – I believe it would have had the 930 beat for sound._________________________________________________________________
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- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB, (continued)
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Erik Nielsen, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Robert W. Garven Jr., April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB clyderomerof4, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Erik Nielsen, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Rick Moseley, April 17 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Doug & Terri, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Erik Nielsen, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Rick Moseley, April 16 2016
- Re: 930 Air cooled v. 512BB Rick Moseley, April 16 2016
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