Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Aviation is self cleansing

[Rick Moseley (ramosel]

Apples and oranges my friend.  or maybe elppas to oranges....

I wouldn't see your supposition as correct, but I certainly see where some would see it as appropriate.

Noticed you didn't use "self".

Had you, I would say no, with some certainty.

Regardless of the which side of the election debate one may be on...

Trump certainly didn't vote himself out

Biden certainly does not possess the mental faculties to run the scale of election fraud alleged.

Right or wrong, it was a conscious decision by millions or outside entities that affected the outcome.

On Sunday, November 14, 2021, 06:57:32 AM PST, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I will agree to disagree.  Your loyalty is admirable.  You are a good man.  Sincerely.

I will leave you with this.  If you read a headline on November 4, 2020 that said, "The Executive Office has been cleansed", how would you have interpreted that?

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 10:20 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

You imagined judgement.  

I assure you.  None was offered by Clyde.  He hasn't the time, want or need for it.

You are still missed the point.

You are concentrating on the cleansing and not aviation.

On Saturday, November 13, 2021, 07:05:51 PM PST, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

I didn't catch it live but that was another spectacular sight.

On the other stuff, I get it.  Don't confuse observation and awareness with emotion.  I have had plenty of the latter so I know the difference, even in myself.  I saw judgment.  All judgment is based in ego.  It is a validation of identity.  Perhaps you are a spiritual man.  The very first lesson in the Bible is "Eat not the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".  It is a stark warning against dualistic thinking and judgment.  So much so that it is considered the original sin.  It got Adam and Eve cast out of the Garden of Eden.  But you and I know this was just a story.  So what did the Garden of Eden really represent?  Peace.

So being aware of ego is not emotional.  We all have one.  It was critical to human survival.  But holding onto that identity as if it was the totality of one's existence absolutely leads to suffering.  For the record, I am not at all implying that you, personally, are holding on particularly tight to an identity.  But while you may not be, consider the possibility that you also might not be in tune to those who are.  My wife's grandfather landed at Normandy and fought his way to Germany.  He received multiple medals for what he did.  He was a good guy and we got along great.  We shared a lot of interests that, literally, no one else in his family did.  I can tell you, he suffered.  I like to think the many hours I spent at their house distracted his mind to happier topics and allowed him to be at peace.   I watched him as he went through the process of dieing.  He was able to do so at peace.  I watched others die who didn't.  The difference, I think, was that some were able to let go of most of their baggage and just be.

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 1:26 PM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

Anthony,

You still miss the point.  And that's ok.   

Your words are well taken but are full of emotions and feelings... judgemental, ego, suffering, humanity, etc.   That's your world, and that's ok.   I won't speak for the others, I did what I did so people from your world didn't have to, or couldn't, or wouldn't.  I don't need anyone to sing Kumbuya with.   You do John Donne, I'll take Clarence "Kelly" Johnson.    I'm at peace with the Universe, but stay off my lawn.  ;-)

That said, did you catch the Starlink launch this morning?  The rocket rising out of the fog into the blue sky was on par with the night launch visuals from earlier this week!

Rick 

On Saturday, November 13, 2021, 09:05:01 AM PST, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Rick,

That is exactly where I was headed.  Not everyone that has died "cleansed" Aviation.  Conversely, not everyone that has survived is a good pilot.  Some are just flat out lucky.  Even good pilots are somewhat lucky because, as you say, it is pretty dangerous business in general and bad shit happens to the best.  I don't doubt Clyde feels bad for these folks.  But why be so judgmental and especially so early in the investigative process?  And who on this list is benefitting from the brutal "honesty".  I'm sorry but it comes off as ego talking.  Like, "I'm still here because I am so great".  That is brutal honesty.  And, honestly, I think it is beneficial.  Ego and pride are one of the biggest sources of suffering.  As we all get older we all face our humanity and mortality.  No one survives forever.  And when we die, everyone is equal no matter how much fame or money you had.  My hope for everyone is that they can let go of all that baggage and live their golden years in peace.  

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 11:30 AM Rick Moseley <ramosel [at] pacbell.net> wrote:

There is nothing "self-righteous" or dishonoring about it.  That's YOUR emotional construct.

It's just a harsh reality.  As pilot at the tip of the spear it is something you have to get your head around... or you get out.

YES, it's that cut and dried for us.

YOU don't have the reference point.

In answer to you question about "a good pilot", yes.

Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass died this year in a GA aircraft.

Snort was a friend and he had been a mentor when I needed one.

He wasn't just good... in my arena, there. was. no. better. 

That is how serious Aviation is the the human condition.

So put all this together and I'll guarantee you that Clyde feels for these people.

Because he knows that 10, 15, 20 times in his flying career it could have been him and only because of his training, his awareness and confidence,  he got himself out. (and in his later career, probably a whole bunch of passengers too)

Doesn't change anything.  Aviation is still self cleansing.  And will continue to be.

On Saturday, November 13, 2021, 07:00:32 AM PST, Anthony Bauco <tbauco [at] gmail.com> wrote:

Must you get self-righteous every time someone dies in a plane crash?  Two people died.  Must you dishonor them with your "self cleansing" judgmental quip?  

Honest question.  Has a good pilot ever crashed or been shot down?  Note: I am not implying this guy was a good pilot.  Just asking a question.

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 9:35 AM <clyderomerof4 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

     RF4-4 ever

If you have no enemies, you have no character !

Clyde Romero    

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