Ferrari Mailing List: Re: The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...wasRe: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)

[cmlf1 (cmlf1]

The astronomical cost of restoring a vintage car today with simple electrical 
and mechanical components is a deterrent to most without deep pockets. But for 
those with the skill and a decent garage and tools, a lot can be done with 
simple equipment, and this is no longer the case for anything post late '80s. 
Frame off restorations of contemporary are a non issue with unitized bodes, and 
who will completely disassemble and re wire a modern car? The wire harnesses 
weigh in the hundreds of lbs. and have thousands of connections and numerous 
control modules etc. The sheer cost of putting a damaged car today back to oe 
specs is out of the question, so a restoration will be damn near impossible. 
Who will manufacture a 456 window regulator in 20 years? Unlike the vintage 
cars of today, that became worthless, then escalated in value, todays cars will 
likely become worthless and remain that way. The fun and excitement of 
restoring a car will no longer be there.
 
Carl
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Warlick 
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with Electronics...wasRe: 
Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
To: cmlf1 [at] optonline.net
Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com

> F40,F50,Enzo.......Other than the ultra collectibles like these 
> I am at a 
> loss LS.
> Dan
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "LS" 
> To: "Daniel" 
> Cc: "The FerrariList" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with 
> Electronics...wasRe: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man 
> rambling on 
> Tuesday)
> 
> 
> Most modern cars are plastic or sheet metal anyways.
> 
> Look at any volume produced car like the M3, 911, Corvette, 
> etc.They share 
> so many parts with other models within their manufacturer. If 
> your 911GT3 
> climate control unit goes bad, go on ebay and buy one off of a 
> parted out 
> Boxter for $50.
> 
> I know nothing about Porsches, so I don't know if this example 
> is true, but 
> I'm making a point about shared platforms.
> 
> A friend's Hartge E90 BMW cost $225k new and has stamped sheet 
> metal lower 
> control arms in the rear!!! Those might've cost $2.56 to produce 
> by a 7 yr 
> old in China.
> 
> There are companies out there that will repair circuit boards 
> for modern 
> Euro car electronics. I had an Audi A4 B5 that had many 
> terrifying 
> electronic glitches. There were companies that would repair bad 
> pixels on 
> electronic displays, repair faulty ABS units and other nutty, 
> labor 
> intensive repairs for literally nothing.
> 
> The point I'm making is that the complexity of modern cars is 
> spawning 
> support industries that we didn't have in the 1980s and 1990s.
> 
> Add that to the sheer volume of cars being produced, even for 
> Ferrari, and 
> the chances of keeping your modern Chinese plastic F430 goes up 
> quite a bit. 
> (haha)
> 
> The real question is...what car produced today is going to be 
> worth 
> restoring 20 yrs from now???
> 
> LS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rick Lindsay 
> To: LS 
> Cc: The FerrariList 
> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:51:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with 
> Electronics...was 
> Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
> 
> Oh, that's exactly what I'm doing. This car isn't worth crap as 
> a collector 
> car so any money spent is in the same category as installing 
> ceiling fans in 
> a house. They may be nice but don't add a cent to the value. I'm 
> going to 
> create a straight-fold foam-core mockup, tweaking the dimensions 
> for correct 
> alignment, then transfer that design to sheet metal, to be 
> formed and welded 
> in place. This is alsso known as, "a good excuse to buy a welder."
> 
> 
> 
> rick
> 
> --- On Thu, 12/4/08, LS wrote:
> 
> > From: LS 
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with 
> Electronics...was 
> > Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on Tuesday)
> > To: "Rick Lindsay" 
> > Cc: "The FerrariList" 
> > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:46 AM
> > It may be cheaper to make the part yourself, but it's
> > certainly available in some way correct?
> >
> > LS
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Rick Lindsay 
> > To: LS 
> > Cc: The FerrariList 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:58:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car with
> > Electronics...was Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old
> > man rambling on Tuesday)
> >
> > Exactly! I have a 1961 Mercedes 180b. It has a rusty
> > radius arm mount. The 4" x 12" piece of formed
> > sheet metal is $800 from the M-B Classic Center - and that
> > doesn't include the $79 mount point or the $39 rubber
> > donut - and does not (obviously) include
> > installation/welding.
> >
> > rick
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, LS wrote:
> >
> > > From: LS 
> > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car
> > with Electronics...was Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A.
> > Old man rambling on Tuesday)
> > > To: "rolindsay" 
> > > Cc: "The FerrariList"
> > 
> > > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:48 AM
> > > The $300k was to build an entire car from scratch with
> > > custom bodywork, wheels, chassis, etc.
> > >
> > > The standalone engine management is much, much,
> > > much cheaper and will be even less so in 20 yrs.
> > >
> > > Benz has started manufacturing all of their vintage
> > parts
> > > with super markups for old restorations to run the
> > > private parts suppliers out of business.
> > >
> > > Why wouldn't Ferrari do the same thing?
> > >
> > > LS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Michael James
> > 
> > > To: LS 
> > > Cc: The FerrariList 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 8:52:40 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car
> > with
> > > Electronics...was Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A.
> > Old
> > > man rambling on Tuesday)
> > >
> > >
> > > Agreed, but when it comes time to fix that F1 tranny
> > in 20
> > > years, I don't think there will be many owners
> > who
> > > will pony-up anything close to $300K to fix or upgrade
> > a 360
> > > F1 to keep it going. In another ten years, the 360
> > will be
> > > lucky to maintain 20% of its original book-value. If
> > the
> > > value to reverse-engineer something surpasses the
> > total
> > > value of the car....the owner is screwed (or needs to
> > be
> > > REALLY in-love with the machine) . Much of the
> > > Tranny's electronics are made by Magnetti Marelli
> > -
> > > they're not well-known for keeping 'NOS'
> > parts
> > > on the shelf forever.
> > >
> > > Then again, Ferrari and some of their OEM parts
> > suppliers
> > > are probably scratching their heads over how many of
> > their
> > > 'old cars' they thought would have disappeared
> > long
> > > ago are being preserved and restored in quantities
> > close to
> > > original production numbers. I know people who are
> > > fabricating small plastic parts in their own
> > garage for
> > > vintage Ferraris...stuff that's been NLA for
> > > years....the Marque is enjoying a very loyal and
> > dedicated
> > > fan base that considers NOTHING Ferrari-related to be
> > > disposable. Will this continue?
> > >
> > > Hey, I hope I'm wrong....the future will be
> > > interesting!
> > >
> > > M
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 12/3/08, LS 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: LS 
> > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car
> > with
> > > Electronics...was Re: Best car I've driven (A.K.A.
> > Old
> > > man rambling on Tuesday)
> > > To: "Michael"
> > 
> > > Cc: "The FerrariList"
> > > 
> > > Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 6:46 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim, good to hear from you. Where have you been?
> > >
> > > I believe Michael James' concern was that as the
> > modern
> > > cars like the 360
> > > get older, the complex electronics would make
> > restoration
> > > or maint impossible.
> > >
> > > When most of these cars need such a solution, they
> > will
> > > probably be too old
> > > (over 20 yrs in some states) to need to be emissions
> > > compliant.
> > >
> > > The F355 will be eligible for antique tags in 6 yrs
> > in my
> > > state!
> > >
> > > Not only will the E30 M3 be driven on the street
> > legally,
> > > it will retain cats
> > > and will pass 1989 tailpipe standards! Although, in
> > his
> > > area, he doesn't
> > > have to comply because the car will be exempt.
> > >
> > > They are doing it simply as a challenge.
> > >
> > > Regarding the motor...they were on the dyno last month
> > with
> > > Dinan's new V10
> > > stroker, 5.6 liters I believe. They will have 600bhp
> > in a
> > > 2800lb E30 M3!
> > >
> > > He spent something like $30k for a new V10 motor just
> > to
> > > tune and setup the
> > > Pectel mgmt. After 1 day of dyno testing by Pectel, it
> > was
> > > trash and they threw
> > > the engine away. Onto engine #2...
> > >
> > > He has $300k into this whole project is not close to
> > being
> > > done. There is so
> > > much custom bodywork, fabrication, and over the top
> > detail
> > > work in the whole
> > > build.
> > >
> > > The next project is to redo one of the new M3s, throw
> > away
> > > all of the
> > > factory crap and replace with real hardware. 700bhp
> > turbo
> > > 5.6 V10, hidden
> > > rollcage, sequential Riccardo box, Comp dry
> > sump-Accusump
> > > system, carbon sun
> > > visors, fire extinguisher on the A pillar, etc.
> > >
> > > Besides...emissions? Where's that male body spray?
> > >
> > > LS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Jim Conforti 
> > > To: LS 
> > > Cc: The FerrariList 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:43:05 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] The Lifespan of a Modern Car
> > with
> > > Electronics...was Re:
> > > Best car I've driven (A.K.A. Old man rambling on
> > > Tuesday)
> > >
> > > At 09:00 AM 12/3/2008 -0800, LS wrote:
> > >
> > > >A friend of mine is building an '89 E30 M3
> > with a
> > > 2008 BMW M5 v10
> > > >drivetrain and suspension. Instead of cracking the
> > > factory ECU
> > > >programming, he trashed it and is having Dinan
> > assist
> > > him with a
> > > >standalone Pectel unit to takeover everything. It
> > was
> > > claimed that the
> > > >modern V10 BMW could not run without proprietary
> > BMW
> > > ECU control. It is a
> > > >ridiculous amount of work, but he is pioneering it
> > for
> > > the BMW world. It
> > > >is only the beginning.
> > >
> > > Of course said vehicle can NEVER be operated on any
> > > public highway in
> > > the USA.
> > >
> > > (Seriously)
> > >
> > > The chances of getting caught are low, but if he
> > does -
> > > I hope he's got
> > > incredibly
> > > deep pockets because it's rather expensive
> > fighting
> > > the US EPA in court.
> > >
> > > This, of course, is why you DON'T
> > "trash"
> > > the factory ECU.
> > > ROFLMAO.
> > >
> > > JC
> > >
> > >
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