Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?

[Pat Scopelliti (pscopell]

Ah, but you have ignored the interaction between the air and the road.  On
the race track the air is not moving relative to the road, and it is only
the car that is moving.  In a wind tunnel, the air flow is used to simulate
the car moving through the air.  But, in a simple (not rolling road tunnel)
the ground is also effectively moving at the same speed as the car and that
is not real-life.

Pat

Pat Scopelliti
pscopell [at] stny.rr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Lindsay [mailto:rolindsay [at] yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:50 PM
To: Pat Scopelliti
Cc: The FerrariList
Subject: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?

Hello wind tunnel chatters,
   Perhaps we're making an incorrect assumption.  Does
the rolling road have to run at the same speed as the
airflow?  Perhaps not.  The biggest effect of the tire
on an open wheel car is the cross-section area
presented to the air flow.  After that is the
distortion of the spinning wheel on downstream air
streamlines.  
   Another point to consider:  With a rolling road the
underbody aerodynamics can be studied better.  The
question I ponder is whether the effect is linear?  In
my work on compressional waves (sound) and shear waves
(particle motion a right angles to the direction of
propagation), I have discovered that the equations
that describe the propagation of waves through
sediment (a.k.a. rock physics) are the same as the
equations for aerodynamics!  Strange that. Anyway,
there are MANY concepts that are highly nonlinear. 
For example.  The velocity of sound changes with the
incompressibility and density of the medium supporting
propagation.  The velocity also changes with the
frequency of the signal.  I don't call it sound now
because ultrasonics and ultra-low frequencies are
included.  To convert the velocities at ultrasonic
frequencies to those at say, 10 hertz, the math is
straight forward.  The biggest change ( ~5% ) occurs
between ultrasonic and about 15k Hz - the upper end of
human hearing.  Below that, the velocity changes very
little (fraction of a percent) all the way down to
almost zero.
   So, with all all this said, I wonder whether the
rolling road effect is most influential between 150
and 200 mph or is that a zone where almost no change
occurs.  How about between stand-still and 50mph?  Or
50mph and 250mph?  It could make HUGE differences in
the design, and therefore the cost of a rolling road
wind tunnel.
   Physics is fun.

regards,

rick

--- Pat Scopelliti <pscopell [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Just found this page showing a NASCAR car in a
> rolling road wind tunnel.
> Imagine that belt failing at 180 mph!
> 
>
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/nascar/haas-builds-rolling-road-wind-tunnel-252
> 670.php
> 
> Pat
> 
> Pat Scopelliti
> pscopell [at] stny.rr.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com
> [mailto:ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:04 AM
> To: Pat Scopelliti
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> 
> Just wondering.  Don;t know much about wind tunnels
> myself, but never  
> before heard of one failing - although it might
> happen all the time.   
> Thought it strange that the failure was blamed for
> so much of the  
> teams problems early in the season and now one of
> the guys involved  
> in body design is suddenly cast as a "spy" - why not
> saboteur?
> 
> Scottie
> 
> 
> On Jul 7, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Reynolds wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I heard that comment about the Ferrari logo,
> Scotty and I  
> > thought both
> > thoughts, the "good for you, kid" and also "you
> little snitch."   
> > But, when
> > you say "Also, does anyone else wonder if sabotage
> might have  
> > something to
> > do with the failure at the Ferrari windtunnel???"
> do you mean that  
> > the wind
> > tunnel failure might have been a part of the
> alleged sabotage?
> > Best regards,
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com"
> <ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com>
> > To: "Tom Reynolds" <kjtar [at] cox.net>
> > Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> >
> >
> >> Did anyone else here the comment, during Practice
> 2, that the case
> >> began when a person working at a copy shop saw
> the Ferrari logo on
> >> the papers brought to him for duplication and
> contacted the team.
> >> Awesome.  Some one needs to buy that lad a pint.
> >>
> >> I've heard McLaren's disavowal but can't help but
> wonder if the FIA
> >> will be forced to take action against them (and
> therefore Alonzo and
> >> Hamilton) to take a strong stand against this
> behavior.  How could
> >> they ever prove that the information did not
> effect the development
> >> of their car or that no one else ever saw it.
> >>
> >> Eagerly awaiting the results of the FIA hearings.
> >>
> >> Also, does anyone else wonder if sabotage might
> have something to do
> >> with the failure at the Ferrari windtunnel???
> >>
> >> Scottie
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 7, 2007, at 8:50 AM, philville dejazzd.com
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>    I can't help but wonder if this is due to the
> fact that many  
> >>> of us
> >>>    expect that this ( "crime of the century" )
> is close to the norm.
> >>>
> >>>    Have a great week end, Phil
> >>>
>
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