Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?

[Rick Lindsay (rolindsay]

Indeed.  The entire 3-D solution is fascinating.  I've
modeled 2-D simple solutions (aircraft wing simulator)
and that eats most of a modest computer. The real 3-D
solution is just way cool. 

rick

--- Pat Scopelliti <pscopell [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Ah, but you have ignored the interaction between the
> air and the road.  On
> the race track the air is not moving relative to the
> road, and it is only
> the car that is moving.  In a wind tunnel, the air
> flow is used to simulate
> the car moving through the air.  But, in a simple
> (not rolling road tunnel)
> the ground is also effectively moving at the same
> speed as the car and that
> is not real-life.
> 
> Pat
> 
> Pat Scopelliti
> pscopell [at] stny.rr.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Lindsay [mailto:rolindsay [at] yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:50 PM
> To: Pat Scopelliti
> Cc: The FerrariList
> Subject: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?
> 
> Hello wind tunnel chatters,
>    Perhaps we're making an incorrect assumption. 
> Does
> the rolling road have to run at the same speed as
> the
> airflow?  Perhaps not.  The biggest effect of the
> tire
> on an open wheel car is the cross-section area
> presented to the air flow.  After that is the
> distortion of the spinning wheel on downstream air
> streamlines.  
>    Another point to consider:  With a rolling road
> the
> underbody aerodynamics can be studied better.  The
> question I ponder is whether the effect is linear? 
> In
> my work on compressional waves (sound) and shear
> waves
> (particle motion a right angles to the direction of
> propagation), I have discovered that the equations
> that describe the propagation of waves through
> sediment (a.k.a. rock physics) are the same as the
> equations for aerodynamics!  Strange that. Anyway,
> there are MANY concepts that are highly nonlinear. 
> For example.  The velocity of sound changes with the
> incompressibility and density of the medium
> supporting
> propagation.  The velocity also changes with the
> frequency of the signal.  I don't call it sound now
> because ultrasonics and ultra-low frequencies are
> included.  To convert the velocities at ultrasonic
> frequencies to those at say, 10 hertz, the math is
> straight forward.  The biggest change ( ~5% ) occurs
> between ultrasonic and about 15k Hz - the upper end
> of
> human hearing.  Below that, the velocity changes
> very
> little (fraction of a percent) all the way down to
> almost zero.
>    So, with all all this said, I wonder whether the
> rolling road effect is most influential between 150
> and 200 mph or is that a zone where almost no change
> occurs.  How about between stand-still and 50mph? 
> Or
> 50mph and 250mph?  It could make HUGE differences in
> the design, and therefore the cost of a rolling road
> wind tunnel.
>    Physics is fun.
> 
> regards,
> 
> rick
> 
> --- Pat Scopelliti <pscopell [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just found this page showing a NASCAR car in a
> > rolling road wind tunnel.
> > Imagine that belt failing at 180 mph!
> > 
> >
>
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/nascar/haas-builds-rolling-road-wind-tunnel-252
> > 670.php
> > 
> > Pat
> > 
> > Pat Scopelliti
> > pscopell [at] stny.rr.com
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com
> > [mailto:ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com] 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:04 AM
> > To: Pat Scopelliti
> > Cc: The FerrariList
> > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> > 
> > Just wondering.  Don;t know much about wind
> tunnels
> > myself, but never  
> > before heard of one failing - although it might
> > happen all the time.   
> > Thought it strange that the failure was blamed for
> > so much of the  
> > teams problems early in the season and now one of
> > the guys involved  
> > in body design is suddenly cast as a "spy" - why
> not
> > saboteur?
> > 
> > Scottie
> > 
> > 
> > On Jul 7, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Reynolds wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, I heard that comment about the Ferrari
> logo,
> > Scotty and I  
> > > thought both
> > > thoughts, the "good for you, kid" and also "you
> > little snitch."   
> > > But, when
> > > you say "Also, does anyone else wonder if
> sabotage
> > might have  
> > > something to
> > > do with the failure at the Ferrari
> windtunnel???"
> > do you mean that  
> > > the wind
> > > tunnel failure might have been a part of the
> > alleged sabotage?
> > > Best regards,
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com"
> > <ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com>
> > > To: "Tom Reynolds" <kjtar [at] cox.net>
> > > Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:19 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Did anyone else here the comment, during
> Practice
> > 2, that the case
> > >> began when a person working at a copy shop saw
> > the Ferrari logo on
> > >> the papers brought to him for duplication and
> > contacted the team.
> > >> Awesome.  Some one needs to buy that lad a
> pint.
> > >>
> > >> I've heard McLaren's disavowal but can't help
> but
> > wonder if the FIA
> > >> will be forced to take action against them (and
> > therefore Alonzo and
> > >> Hamilton) to take a strong stand against this
> > behavior.  How could
> > >> they ever prove that the information did not
> > effect the development
> > >> of their car or that no one else ever saw it.
> > >>
> > >> Eagerly awaiting the results of the FIA
> hearings.
> > >>
> > >> Also, does anyone else wonder if sabotage might
> > have something to do
> > >> with the failure at the Ferrari windtunnel???
> > >>
> > >> Scottie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Jul 7, 2007, at 8:50 AM, philville
> dejazzd.com
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>    I can't help but wonder if this is due to
> the
> > fact that many  
> > >>> of us
> > >>>    expect that this ( "crime of the century" )
> > is close to the norm.
> > >>>
> > >>>    Have a great week end, Phil
> > >>>
> >
>
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