Ferrari Mailing List: Re: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?

[Robert W. Garven Jr. (rgarven]

"if your not first your last"

Ricky Bobby


On Jul 8, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Rick Lindsay wrote:

> Excellent reference!  I loved the rolling sidewalks
> idea when I first read those books.  It brings to mind
> the concept, "Speed doesn't kill.  Speed differential
> kills!"
>
> regards,
> rick
>
> --- ken rentiers <rentiers [at] mac.com> wrote:
>
> > Rick and FList:
> >
> > of course, as you no doubt  know, this is not the
> > first time the
> > rolling roads have been sabotaged...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll
> >
> > -ken-
> >
> > On Jul 8, 2007, at 8:46 AM, Rick Lindsay wrote:
> >
> > > Indeed.  The entire 3-D solution is fascinating.
> > I've
> > > modeled 2-D simple solutions (aircraft wing
> > simulator)
> > > and that eats most of a modest computer. The real
> > 3-D
> > > solution is just way cool.
> > >
> > > rick
> > >
> > > --- Pat Scopelliti <pscopell [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, but you have ignored the interaction between
> > the
> > > > air and the road.  On
> > > > the race track the air is not moving relative to
> > the
> > > > road, and it is only
> > > > the car that is moving.  In a wind tunnel, the
> > air
> > > > flow is used to simulate
> > > > the car moving through the air.  But, in a simple
> > > > (not rolling road tunnel)
> > > > the ground is also effectively moving at the same
> > > > speed as the car and that
> > > > is not real-life.
> > > >
> > > > Pat
> > > >
> > > > Pat Scopelliti
> > > > pscopell [at] stny.rr.com
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rick Lindsay [mailto:rolindsay [at] yahoo.com]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:50 PM
> > > > To: Pat Scopelliti
> > > > Cc: The FerrariList
> > > > Subject: Rolling roads, was: Ferrari Sabotage?
> > > >
> > > > Hello wind tunnel chatters,
> > > >    Perhaps we're making an incorrect assumption.
> > > > Does
> > > > the rolling road have to run at the same speed as
> > > > the
> > > > airflow?  Perhaps not.  The biggest effect of the
> > > > tire
> > > > on an open wheel car is the cross-section area
> > > > presented to the air flow.  After that is the
> > > > distortion of the spinning wheel on downstream
> > air
> > > > streamlines.
> > > >    Another point to consider:  With a rolling
> > road
> > > > the
> > > > underbody aerodynamics can be studied better.
> > The
> > > > question I ponder is whether the effect is
> > linear?
> > > > In
> > > > my work on compressional waves (sound) and shear
> > > > waves
> > > > (particle motion a right angles to the direction
> > of
> > > > propagation), I have discovered that the
> > equations
> > > > that describe the propagation of waves through
> > > > sediment (a.k.a. rock physics) are the same as
> > the
> > > > equations for aerodynamics!  Strange that.
> > Anyway,
> > > > there are MANY concepts that are highly
> > nonlinear.
> > > > For example.  The velocity of sound changes with
> > the
> > > > incompressibility and density of the medium
> > > > supporting
> > > > propagation.  The velocity also changes with the
> > > > frequency of the signal.  I don't call it sound
> > now
> > > > because ultrasonics and ultra-low frequencies are
> > > > included.  To convert the velocities at
> > ultrasonic
> > > > frequencies to those at say, 10 hertz, the math
> > is
> > > > straight forward.  The biggest change ( ~5% )
> > occurs
> > > > between ultrasonic and about 15k Hz - the upper
> > end
> > > > of
> > > > human hearing.  Below that, the velocity changes
> > > > very
> > > > little (fraction of a percent) all the way down
> > to
> > > > almost zero.
> > > >    So, with all all this said, I wonder whether
> > the
> > > > rolling road effect is most influential between
> > 150
> > > > and 200 mph or is that a zone where almost no
> > change
> > > > occurs.  How about between stand-still and 50mph?
> > > > Or
> > > > 50mph and 250mph?  It could make HUGE differences
> > in
> > > > the design, and therefore the cost of a rolling
> > road
> > > > wind tunnel.
> > > >    Physics is fun.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > rick
> > > >
> > > > --- Pat Scopelliti <pscopell [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just found this page showing a NASCAR car in a
> > > > > rolling road wind tunnel.
> > > > > Imagine that belt failing at 180 mph!
> http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/nascar/haas-builds-rolling-road-wind-
> > > tunnel-252
> > > > > 670.php
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Scopelliti
> > > > > pscopell [at] stny.rr.com
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com
> > > > > [mailto:ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:04 AM
> > > > > To: Pat Scopelliti
> > > > > Cc: The FerrariList
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wondering.  Don;t know much about wind
> > > > tunnels
> > > > > myself, but never
> > > > > before heard of one failing - although it might
> > > > > happen all the time.
> > > > > Thought it strange that the failure was blamed
> > for
> > > > > so much of the
> > > > > teams problems early in the season and now one
> > of
> > > > > the guys involved
> > > > > in body design is suddenly cast as a "spy" - why
> > > > not
> > > > > saboteur?
> > > > >
> > > > > Scottie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jul 7, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Reynolds wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I heard that comment about the Ferrari
> > > > logo,
> > > > > Scotty and I
> > > > > > thought both
> > > > > > thoughts, the "good for you, kid" and also "you
> > > > > little snitch."
> > > > > > But, when
> > > > > > you say "Also, does anyone else wonder if
> > > > sabotage
> > > > > might have
> > > > > > something to
> > > > > > do with the failure at the Ferrari
> > > > windtunnel???"
> > > > > do you mean that
> > > > > > the wind
> > > > > > tunnel failure might have been a part of the
> > > > > alleged sabotage?
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: "Ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com"
> > > > > <ferrarisimo [at] hotmail.com>
> > > > > > To: "Tom Reynolds" <kjtar [at] cox.net>
> > > > > > Cc: "The FerrariList" <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:19 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Ferrari] Ferrari Sabotage?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did anyone else here the comment, during
> > > > Practice
> > > > > 2, that the case
> > > > > > > began when a person working at a copy shop saw
> > > > > the Ferrari logo on
> > > > > > > the papers brought to him for duplication and
> > > > > contacted the team.
> > > > > > > Awesome.  Some one needs to buy that lad a
> > > > pint.
> > > > > > > I've heard McLaren's disavowal but can't help
> > > > but
> > > > > wonder if the FIA
> > > > > > > will be forced to take action against them
> > (and
> > > > > therefore Alonzo and
> > > > > > > Hamilton) to take a strong stand against this
> > > > > behavior.  How could
> > > > > > > they ever prove that the information did not
> > > > > effect the development
> > > > > > > of their car or that no one else ever saw it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eagerly awaiting the results of the FIA
> > > > hearings.
> > > > > > > Also, does anyone else wonder if sabotage
> > might
> > > > > have something to do
> > > > > > > with the failure at the Ferrari windtunnel???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Scottie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2007, at 8:50 AM, philville
> > > > dejazzd.com
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >    I can't help but wonder if this is due to
> > > > the
> > > > > fact that many
> > > > > > > > of us
> > > > > > > >    expect that this ( "crime of the century"
> > )
> > > > > is close to the norm.
> > > > > > > >    Have a great week end, Phil
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