Ferrari Mailing List: Re: NFC, Looking for some Gun advice.

[Dave Handa (dave]

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From: BRIGANDBAR [at] aol.com [mailto:BRIGANDBAR [at] aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 2:53 PM
To: dave [at] davehanda.com
Cc: dave.craig [at] sbcglobal.net; ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NFC, Looking for some Gun advice.

 

Dave:

 

My guess is that we will have to agree to the fact that our law enforcement
and military experiences must be very different as we agree on very little
when it comes to the carrying of a firearm for defensive purposes except for
the fact that carrying one is adviseable and places one in a more
advantageous circumstance than an unarmed individual in any confrontational
or victimization environment.  See we agree on something!  :-)

 

In my experience I can first say that if a firearm is too big and unweildy
notwithstanding any permits or legal constraints an individual will simply
neglect, or make a conscious decision not to carry it. No firearm, even one
of perfect design and the highest qualithy, is of any value if it is left
behind in a gun safe when it is needed elsewhere. I hope that this is one
point in which you will concur.  Yes

 

My experience also teaches me that for the vast majority of permit holders
who do carry their firearms on their person that individual is best advised
to reserve its use for self-protection, and/or to obtain disengagement of
another armed party. Non-law enforcement individuals are not trained to, nor
are they protected by law when theyt "voluntarily" intervene in situations
involving third parties and they are not "duty-bound" to do so. Further, any
individual with a firearm becomes a target upon the arrival of law
enforcement officers in response to any incident report. This can become way
too heated, and confused, for that individual to depend upon shouting
"permit holding citizen" to advise the officer first on the scene, that is
tough enough to do when you have a badge, albeit it may say "Retired" on it
in a community unless it is small enough for virtually all law enforcement
officers to know each other on sight.  We recommend private citizens do NOT
intervene, but instead make good "witnesses" and call LE.  Use the firearm
only to protect themselves or those they truly care about

 

Finally, many of us who are no longer "duty bound" carry our firearms in an
admittedly less than optimum manner, such as in an ankle holster in the
summer time when in soft clothes so "size matters". Personally, I've elected
to move up to a 9mm from a .380acp cartridge because I've been fortunate
enough to own a stainless steel, small frame, 9mm pistol which is virtually
the same size as the Walther PPK. I often don't wear a belt with blue jeans
on the farm or in town during the summer which eliminates most useful
holsters as I'm not much on the pancake style. Sometimes, though the through
my thoughts on the matter may baffle you, I simply carry an extremely small
stainless steel "deringer-size" revolver that has five rounds of .22 l.r.
hollow point ammunition. Sub-optimal, yes, but they fit into my lifestyle at
the time and it is "better than nothing". It is lprobably "difficult to hold
and shoot accurately" but clearing the slide is not an issue. And, should
the need arise i might remind you of the number of folks who are killed each
year with .22 rimfire ammunition This point is irrelevant, as I have no
interest in killing anyone.  I wish to stop one's violent/lethal actions
toward me, and a small caliber weapon may kill someone eventually, but it is
not going to reliably end a confronation RIGHT NOW. One of three things have
to happen to stop a violent attack, physiological (attacker runs out of
blood), psychological, (attacker changes his mind/actions) or physical you
blow out his computer (brain), spine or pelvis, which prevents him from
continuing the attack.  Except on rare occasions I don't live my life in the
"Red Zone" anymore (and if such an occasion present itself I'll take the
precaution of carrying a suitable firearm), in fact I spend most of it on
the "white" side of the "Yellow Zone". And, if i do come across a crime in
progress with an armed offender my first step will be to use my cell phone
to call "911" from a position of concealment and cover and to the greatest
extent possible try to stay out of their way. It is only in a "one on one"
type confrontation with one, or perhaps more than one, armed offender that I
will "benefit" from carrying a concealed firearm and I simply use a
risk/reward algorithm to subconsciously determine which firearm I'll choose
to arm myself with on any given occasion.  As I previously posted above, we
recommend private citizens do NOT intervene, but instead make good
"witnesses" and call LE.  Use the firearm only to protect themselves or
those they truly care about

 

One more point. Most of the time when I am on the farm, or in town I'm in
one of my trucks each of which generally carry something like an AR-10 and a
12 ga. shotgun, sometimes a .45-70 lever action rifle or in snake country my
much maligned (in your stated opinion) that Taurus "Judge" revolver, so my
"C&C" handgun won't be my only, or even my best available firearm.  And your
point is??

 

One of my favorite volunteer instructors, of which I am another but not my
favorite one, who teaches in the local police department (did I mention my
wife is the Chief of Police of that department Yes you did, though last time
you said she was the sheriff) conceal and carry, self-awareness/self-defense
course emphasizes the most important point in these discussions, choose a
handgun that you will carry with you, on your person, at most if not all
times, get comfortable with its means of operation, its strong points and
weak points, and become an accurate shot with that firearm. Then mentally
prepare yourself for the responsibility of carrying a concealed firearm and
legally prepare yourself for the ramifications should you elect to use that
firearm in the defense of others (as this consideration is virtually
non-existent when it usage is to protect oneself and the legality of use by
a survivor is always better than that of non-use by a wounded or deceased
victim).  Not sure what you are comparing to from your previous statement
about concealed carry classes, but all the ones I have attended (gunsite,
LFI, Defense Training Int'l, FAS, Insights Training Center) ALL spend
considerable time on preparing mentally for a violent encounter, and the
aftermath, including a reading list.

 

I always recommend that they get a copy of LtCol. Grossman's book (see an
earlier posting) and read it when they can to gain perspective on the
psychological and social implication of carrying and using a firearm under
even the most extraordinary circumstances.

 

All in all though, a citizen is better off armed with virtually any firearm
with which they are familiar with and can operate accurately and
successfully then unarmed because they left their firearm at home because it
was too unwieldly, didn't go with their shoes, didn't fit under their suit
or in their purse of any of an infinite number of reasons why C&C permit
holders are unarmed at a "critical incident" moment. 

 

If you believe that you when you carry a firearm "it should be of the
largest caliber they can carry and use effectively" go for it. If you
believe that compact and subcompact (two of your three classes of handguns)
are contraindicated for your students so advise them and insist that they
carry that "largest caliber" firearm. I would be interested in knowning (and
I doubt that I would have any way of obtaining the requisite data) just how
many of your students spend what proportion of their "exposure time" unarmed
for whatever reason makes it sub-optimal to carry that "largest caliber that
they can carry and use effectively". Do all of the law enforcement officers
that you know carry "the largest caliber they can carry and use effectively"
when off-duty and on family outings such as water skiing or taking their
kids to an amusement park? The ones that I know, including myself in that
past life, do not carry "the largest caliber they can carry and use
effectively", in fact they usually carry a smaller firearm, perhaps their
own departmental issue "back up gun".  You are taking my recommendation out
of context.  I said "carry and use effectively"  If they cannot effectively
carry due to circumstances of dress or situation, then one would need to
downsize, but again, you do not start with the smallest pistol as a primary
carry gun.

 

I don't know if you are (still?) a full time, sworn law enforcement official
at this time, but I am curious as to whether you always carry your Glock
pistol? Do you ever opt for a smaller (caliber and physical size) firearm
because it is more suitable for the social circumstances that you find
yourself participating in? Where do you store your firearms in your house
and do you have a handgun, or handguns, located in various rooms of the
house as a defense against home invasion? Do you own any of those third
category "subcompact" firearms and if so what use do you have for them?  I'm
not sure what you are arguing with the gun size issue, I said people should
get the largest caliber gun they can carry and use effectively.  If it must
be a 32acp, so be it, but I would never make the blanket recommendation (as
you did) that a 32acp handgun is to be recommended or is suitable for a
lethal encounter.

 

Inevitably we will each go about on our chosen path and hopefully the need
will never arise to empirically verify which of our hypotheses is more
correct in its applications.

 

Dr. Steve

 

Dr. Stephen B. Spies, CES, CFI
Director, Forensic Sciences Laboratory
Explosives Engineering Technologies

1964 Rolls Royce Silver Cloud III.....1975 Pontiac Grandville 
1980 MB 450 SL............................1982 Rolls Royce Corniche DHC
1988 Rolls Royce Silver Spur..........1994 F-350 PowerStroke Diesel 
1995 Ferrari 348 Spyder.................1996 Ford Bronco 
2000 Lincoln Town Car....................2004 Ford Excursion
+ a
1985 MB 280GE Galedenwagen for Explorations 
+ a
1976 HAHN- WARNER & SWASEY- DUPLEX DIVISION HOWE APPARTUS. THE MODEL #R400
FIRE TRUCK w/a 100' Tower System 
&
Audrey's 2 MB's [1980 450SL & 1987 420SEL] to care for...

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