Ferrari Mailing List: Re: NFC, Looking for some Gun advice.

(continued)

   IMHO, 99% of criminals trying to mug you or attack you for some reason 
will not care if you are shooting at them with a .22 or a .45  - either way 
they will turn and run.  The last 1% will be a problem for the .22 but would 
be stopped in their tracks by a .45.
But I'm not a profession ald do not play one on TV.
;-)
Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
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.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <BRIGANDBAR [at] aol.com>

To: "Larry Turner" <l02turner [at] comcast.net>

Cc: <dave.craig [at] sbcglobal.net>; <ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com>

Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 5:52 PM

Subject: Re: [Ferrari] NFC, Looking for some Gun advice.
Dave:
My guess is that we will have to agree to the fact that our law 
enforcement

and military experiences must be very different as we agree on very little

when  it comes to the carrying of a firearm for defensive purposes except 
for the

fact  that carrying one is adviseable and places one in a more 
advantageous

circumstance than an unarmed individual in any confrontational or

victimization  environment.
In my experience I can first say that if a firearm is too big and unweildy

notwithstanding any permits or legal constraints an individual will simply

neglect, or make a conscious decision not to carry it. No firearm, even 
one of

perfect design and the highest qualithy, is of any value if it is left 
behind

in  a gun safe when it is needed elsewhere. I hope that this is one point 
in

which  you will concur.
My experience also teaches me that for the vast majority of permit holders

who do carry their firearms on their person that individual is best 
advised to

reserve its use for self-protection, and/or to obtain disengagement of

another  armed party. Non-law enforcement individuals are not trained to, 
nor are

they  protected by law when theyt "voluntarily" intervene in situations

involving  third parties and they are not "duty-bound" to do so. Further, 
any

individual  with a firearm becomes a target upon the arrival of law 
enforcement

officers in  response to any incident report. This can become way too 
heated, and

confused,  for that individual to depend upon shouting "permit holding 
citizen"

to advise  the officer first on the scene, that is tough enough to do when 
you

have a  badge, albeit it may say "Retired" on it in a community unless it 
is

small  enough for virtually all law enforcement officers to know each 
other on

sight.
Finally, many of us who are no longer "duty bound" carry our firearms in 
an

admittedly less than optimum manner, such as in an ankle holster in the 
summer

time when in soft clothes so "size matters". Personally, I've elected to

move up  to a 9mm from a .380acp cartridge because I've been fortunate 
enough to

own a  stainless steel, small frame, 9mm pistol which is virtually the 
same

size as the  Walther PPK. I often don't wear a belt with blue jeans on the 
farm

or in town  during the summer which eliminates most useful holsters as I'm 
not

much on the  pancake style. Sometimes, though the through my thoughts on 
the

matter may  baffle you, I simply carry an extremely small stainless steel

"deringer-size"  revolver that has five rounds of .22 l.r. hollow point

ammunition. Sub-optimal,  yes, but they fit into my lifestyle at the time 
and it is

"better than nothing".  It is lprobably "difficult to hold and shoot 
accurately"

but clearing the slide  is not an issue. And, should the need arise i 
might

remind you of the number of  folks who are killed each year with .22 
rimfire

ammunition. Except on rare  occasions I don't live my life in the "Red 
Zone"

anymore (and if such an  occasion present itself I'll take the precaution 
of

carrying a suitable  firearm), in fact I spend most of it on the "white" 
side of the

"Yellow Zone".  And, if i do come across a crime in progress with an armed

offender my first  step will be to use my cell phone to call "911" from a

position of concealment  and cover and to the greatest extent possible try 
to stay

out of their way. It  is only in a "one on one" type confrontation with 
one, or

perhaps more than one,  armed offender that I will "benefit" from carrying 
a

concealed firearm and I  simply use a risk/reward algorithm to 
subconsciously

determine which firearm  I'll choose to arm myself with on any given 
occasion.
One more point. Most of the time when I am on the farm, or in town I'm in

one of my trucks each of which generally carry something like an AR-10 and 
a 12

ga. shotgun, sometimes a .45-70 lever action rifle or in snake country my

much  maligned (in your stated opinion) that Taurus "Judge" revolver, so 
my "C&C"

handgun won't be my only, or even my best available firearm.
One of my favorite volunteer instructors, of which I am another but not my

favorite one, who teaches in the local police department (did I mention my 
wife

is the Chief of Police of that department) conceal and carry,

self-awareness/self-defense course emphasizes the most important point in 
these

discussions, choose a handgun that you will carry with you, on your 
person, at  most if

not all times, get comfortable with its means of operation, its strong 
points

and weak points, and become an accurate shot with that firearm. Then

mentally prepare yourself for the responsibility of carrying a concealed 
firearm  and

legally prepare yourself for the ramifications should you elect to use 
that

firearm in the defense of others (as this consideration is virtually

non-existent when it usage is to protect oneself and the legality of use 
by a

survivor is always better than that of non-use by a wounded or deceased 
victim).
I always recommend that they get a copy of LtCol. Grossman's book (see an

earlier posting) and read it when they can to gain perspective on the

psychological and social implication of carrying and using a firearm under 
even  the

most extraordinary circumstances.
All in all though, a citizen is better off armed with virtually any 
firearm

with which they are familiar with and can operate accurately and 
successfully

then unarmed because they left their firearm at home because it was too

unwieldly, didn't go with their shoes, didn't fit under their suit or in 
their

purse of any of an infinite number of reasons why C&C permit holders are

unarmed at a "critical incident" moment.
If you believe that you when you carry a firearm "it should be of  the

largest caliber they can carry and use effectively" go for it. If you 
believe that

compact and subcompact (two of your three classes of handguns) are

contraindicated for your students so advise them and insist that they 
carry that

"largest caliber" firearm. I would be interested in knowning (and I doubt 
that I

would have any way of obtaining the requisite data) just how many of your

students spend what proportion of their "exposure time" unarmed for 
whatever

reason makes it sub-optimal to carry that "largest caliber that they can 
carry  and

use effectively". Do all of the law enforcement officers that you know 
carry

"the largest caliber they can carry and use effectively" when off-duty and 
on

family outings such as water skiing or taking their kids to an amusement

park?  The ones that I know, including myself in that past life, do not 
carry

"the  largest caliber they can carry and use effectively", in fact they 
usually

carry  a smaller firearm, perhaps their own departmental issue "back up 
gun".
I don't know if you are (still?) a full time, sworn law enforcement 
official

at this time, but I am curious as to whether you always carry your  Glock

pistol? Do you ever opt for a smaller (caliber and physical size) firearm

because it is more suitable for the social circumstances that you find 
yourself

participating in? Where do you store your firearms in your house and do 
you have

a handgun, or handguns, located in various rooms of the house as a defense

against home invasion? Do you own any of those third category "subcompact"

firearms and if so what use do you have for them?
Inevitably we will each go about on our chosen path and hopefully the need

will never arise to empirically verify which of our hypotheses is more 
correct

in its applications.
Dr. Steve
Dr.  Stephen B. Spies, CES, CFI
Director, Forensic Sciences  Laboratory
Explosives Engineering Technologies
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Re: NFC, Looking for some Gun advice.	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: LarryT (l02turnercomcast.net)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:17:20 -0800 (PST)