Ferrari Mailing List: Re: High Capacity Magazine Firearms

[Dave Handa (dave]

You may not have experienced a stoppage yet, but you will.  If not induced
by the weapon, it can be by the ammunition, environment, or the shooter.

IPSC is a game, played on a sterile range environment.  Guns are typically
kept in good repair and cleaned/checked often.  Real life is a bit
different, guns and ammunition can and do fail.  Shooters induce stoppages
due to the shooting position or hold on the weapon.  Dirt, sand, rain, blood
and brush can and have caused stoppages on our ranges.  

I will not deny that you have had good luck with your HK handguns.  But I
HAVE seen stoppages with the P7, USP 45, and even the vaunted MK23.  Stuff
happens, as they say.

None of this is to downplay the quality of HK firearms, they are without a
doubt top notch.  But learning malfunction drills is important, just as it
is to know how to jump start a car and change a flat tire.  Even if you own
a Honda or Toyota with run flat tires....  ;-)

Dave




-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Stark [mailto:MStark [at] Copper.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:59 PM
To: Dave Handa
Cc: 'The FerrariList'
Subject: Re: [Ferrari] High Capacity Magazine Firearms

Carry an HK (any model) and you will never have a clearance issue.  I've 
fired upwards of 20,000 rounds
(think IPSC) through my several HK handguns and have yet to have a 
failure to feed or failure to go bang. The HK designers and engineers 
have figured it out.
HK UPS .45
HK UPS Tactical .45 with JPoint
HK USP Expert .45
HK USP 9 W/El cheapo laser
HK P7M8
HK SR9TC with SA Gen3

Dave Handa wrote:

>Actually any qualified SWAT officer should be well trained in one handed
>malfunction drills.  BUT, they may wish to go to the back up handgun
because
>it is FASTER than doing the clearance drills one handed, not because they
>are incapable of performing them.
>
>QUOTE:
>"But, once again to get back to the crux of the matter, most of us are  
>generally civilians who carry a firearm for personal protection and should
>not  
>expect to be "duty bound" to face down armed adversaries. Your best backup
>weapon 
>is your cell phone, and your best tactic is to retreat whenever possible
to
>
>a safer location."
>
>
>This is good advice, and my recommendation as well, though I would consider
>the cell phone to by my PRIMARY self-defense weapon, not a back up.
Calling
>911 and being a good witness is most often the best course of action.
>Avoidance should also be considered. Retreating is warranted, as long as it
>does not make you more vulnerable or weaken your defense to do so.  But we
>are talking about many possible scenarios, the above implies say, walking
>into the bank as an armed robber goes down, and what obligation you have to
>do something (you don't have to do a thing, and in fact I would turn around
>and walk or run right out).  But what about the mugger that sticks a knife
>in your face, or that of a loved one? Now YOU are in a lethal force
>situation, and must deal with it.
>
>Getting some quality training is always a good thing to consider,
>particularly in unarmed self-defense and pepperspray.  If the only
>option/training you have in your personal "tool box" is the gun, then
pretty
>much all your solutions will probably include a gun...for better or worse.
>
>Dave
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: BRIGANDBAR [at] aol.com [mailto:BRIGANDBAR [at] aol.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:47 PM
>To: dave [at] davehanda.com
>Cc: ferrari [at] ferrarilist.com
>Subject: Re: [Ferrari] High Capacity Magazine Firearms
>
> 
>In a message dated 9/19/2006 2:17:27 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
>charles [at] carolina-sound.com writes:
>
>is there  any research to indicate having a backup for purposes other than 
>something  else to fire after your primary weapon is empty is  worthwhile?
>
>
>
>Charles:
> 
>Not for civilians that I know of. If you are venturing into "Indian
>Country" 
>or anticipating "hostile action" I would suggest you bring along an  AR-10 
>with a 16" bbl. and several 30 rd. magazines. That is what I carry when I
>do 
>some hard core 4x4 back country exploring, but mostly because something
like
>a 
>mountain lion or a bear might be offended by my presence and not allow me
to
>
>do what I would do first in any case, leave him, and his home undisturbed.
>My  
>grandson has just reminded me that the Lone Ranger carries two guns, and I 
>guess  he is technically a civilian, so I guess he could be the exception
>that 
>proves  the rule. Other than that, one handgun is fine for me (but I'm too 
>cheap for  silver bullets <g>)
> 
>Professionally, the reason for a (revolver) backup in tac ops is if you are
>
>injured in your hand and/or arm and cannot clear a malfunction or reload
>your 
>pistol or other automatic or semi-automatic firearm, to ensure that you
>have 
>access to a working firearm. Additionally, in a tac ops situation should
>you 
>drop your primary firearm or otherwise become disarmed you have access to a
>
>weapon to continue to fight.
> 
>I can tell you, as an experienced Crisis and Hostage Negotiator, that it is
>
>highly unlikely that you will access your backup firearm if you are being
>held 
> hostage, and that a futile attempt to do so will endanger not only
>yourself, 
>but  any other hostages as well. Most agencies, military and Federal
>civilian 
>have  strict rules against surrendering your weapon under any circumstances

>except  when disabled and thus unable to prevent it being taken away from
>you.  
>Personally, I can think of no circumstance that I would be better off
giving
>
>up  my firearm to a third party than I would be resisting surrendering it
to
>
>the  best of my ability.
> 
>But, once again to get back to the crux of the matter, most of us are  
>generally civilians who carry a firearm for personal protection and should
>not  
>expect to be "duty bound" to face down armed adversaries. Your best backup
>weapon 
>is your cell phone, and your best tactic is to retreat whenever possible
to
>
>a safer location. I no longer live my life in the "Red Zone", do well to  
>function in the "Yellow Zone" except under certain circumstances and relax
>in  the 
>"Green" or "White" zones. Even when working I cannot remember needing  
>additional armament for personal protection.
> 
>I'm looking forward to the examples that Brian will provide as to when a  
>backup firearm might be required. I may reevaluate my position should he  
>recognize some circumstance that I have missed, or we may simply agree to
>disagree.
> 
>Of course, if you lose control of the situation your backup firearm may be

>useful to your adversary.
> 
>Dr. Steve
> 
>Dr. Steve  
>
>1964 Rolls  Royce Silver Cloud III    1975 Pontiac GV Conv.
>1980 MB  450SL                 1982 RR  Corniche
>1994 F-350 Powerstroke  4x4          1996  Bronco
>2000 Lincoln Town  Car                   2004  Excursion
>1995 Ferrari 348 Spyder
>+ Audrey's 3x MB's
>
>Dr.  Stephen B. Spies, CES, CFI
>Director, Forensic Sciences  Laboratory
>Explosives Engineering Technologies
>
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